Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
Alright, then let's split the hairs a bit finer:
Agreeing that NO WORK can ever "earn" Salvation in any way...
Is it true that Faith is a WORK (an Activity, a Volitional Action of Will, whether "earnful" or not) in ANY SENSE AT ALL?
Or, does Faith NOT involve any Volitional Action of Will whatsoever?
I'm prepared to argue -- and win -- God's Total Sovereignty any way you slice it; you just tell me which way you wanna play it.
Best, OP
It is not about "hard cases" it is about a man repenting and believing ..the only criteria set out in 99.99% of Gods word as NECESSARY for salvation .Is God a liar?
The same way as this thread has been doing for years now.
Us successfully, and you not so much so.
It's easy since the bible's on our side.
Saving faith is not a work.
God teaches that we must keep his commandments to enter His kingdom(Matthew 7:21). Baptism is a commandment(Matthew 28:19). Therefore, how can we be in His kingdom if we are not baptized?
It is not about a percentage of passages that teach one thing or another. If something is taught in the Word of God and you don't abide by it, that is not doing His Will. How many times does God have to tell you something before you accept it?
God is not a liar. At the same time, you can't pick and choose which passages to believe. I believe all those passages that don't mention baptism, and I believe all the passages that do teach baptism. That is because the Word of God is truth. You have to take His Word as a whole, not in part. Taken as a whole, we are taught to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized.
So then you are not saved by grace or mercy, but because you keep the law?
I quote you Scripture, and since you can't deny it, you try to make me say something I didn't say. How cute.
Without grace and mercy, we would never be able to approach our Father in Heaven. It is by God's grace and His mercy that He provides us a way to come to Him. God has commanded us to do His will, and that is not for us to question. Submitting to His will in no way negates His grace and mercy.
If you're prepared to admit that Saving Faith involves no volitional action of Will whatsoever, then I am happy to withdraw my argument.
On the other hand, if you maintain that Saving Faith DOES INVOLVE a volitional action of Will of some kind... then we are at least talking about some kind of "Work of Faith".
Well, in that case, the Calvinists also win.
So... Does Saving Faith involve a volitional action of Will, OR NOT?
Just tell me how you wanna play it. Either way, the Calvinists win.
It is important that it was "keeping the law" that was contrasted with "faith." That makes "keeping the law" the equivalent of the parallel expression, "works." In short, it's a matter of "living a good enough life" to earn your own salvation, or a matter of "trusting God's mercy" as a way of attaining to salvation.
Me....I MUST choose the mercy route. My sins are too great for me to make it any other way.
Believing God's promise is not "living a good enough life" to earn your way in.
Only if making fallacious arguments is considered "winning" in the world of Calvinism.
Well, the Bible teaches that while a Man is yet Spiritually-Dead, he NEVER "chooses to Trust God".
So, are you admitting that IN ORDER TO "choose to Trust God", a Man must FIRST be "Born Again" (i.e., Quickened unto Spiritual Life by the Holy Spirit)?
You beat me by less than a minute.
Check out #869 and my post to you from yesterday (I think.)
Your question doesn't work because you don't understand what "salvation by works" is.
See #871, then.
We've gone through this spiritually dead stuff before.
The Philippian jailer discussion in which it was impossible for anyone to maintain that Paul did not FIRST say to the Jailer, "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ...."
This spiritually "dead" man was guided preveniently by the grace of God to see his need and so he asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (NOT coincidentally, the title of this thread and of Dwight Moody's sermon.)
Incidentally, do you consider that Dwight Moody was a heretic?
Nope. One is born in the Spirit by choosing to trust in God after He has extended His initiative. Without God first taking the initiative, no man comes to Him, I agree--but once He has done so, the Scriptures are plain that a person can refuse His offer of salvation.
But I see that once again you dodge actually providing an answer to Paul in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2, this time by trying to change the subject. Are you conceeding that faith is not a work in God's eyes? Until you answer this, I see no reason to retread the "spiritually dead" argument, which we've already beaten to death in our various debates.
LOL!
We are anticipating each other.
See my 874
So then you are not saved by grace and mercy, grace and mercy merely make it possible for you to be saved?
Prevenient Grace, leading Men in this direction or that, does not effect Regeneration. God controls Men's Actions howsoever He wills (Proverbs 21:1), but nonetheless we do know: Unless the Philippian Jailer were Quickened by the Holy Spirit IN ORDER TO understand and receive the Gospel, he would not have "had ears to hear". This Scripture teaches.
At that point the Jailer IS going forward UNLESS he resists. "No man who puts his hand to the plow...."
But some men have "always resisted the Holy Ghost."
The Bible says we are "saved by Grace through faith"(Ephesians 2:8), so I can't argue against that. However, that does not mean that we have no responsibility to submit to God. If that were the case, then there would be universal salvation and no one would go to Hell. However, the Bible is clear that this is not the case(Matthew 7:14).
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