The Confederate battle flag:a racist symbol or proud history?

arbiter ^ | 20-Jan-2005 | Bill Ward

[stand watie]

you asked for 3. i could name at least 50 off the top of my head.

1.social experimentation dreamed up by the leftist/statist damnedyankee "intellectuals" out of the socialist northeastern university faculties & mandated by the federal government. (don't believe me- what LEFTIST program can you name that came out of dixie?)

2.the IRS & the federal income tax.

3.the "pro-choice movement", i.e. the MURDER of the UNborn.

frankly, southerners/southrons couldn't care less what damnyankees do in the north. pass any stupid law you want as long as it only applies "up there".

just leave us, our churches, our schools, our battleflags/memorials/burial sites & our families ALONE. period. end of story.

free dixie,sw

[driveserve]

"MORE ignorant bilge!"

Not so. It's x's point of view backed up by evidence you provided yourself. Just look at your response. Does it not dovetail just perfectly into his "If you try to provide different, more historically valid context for understanding such things, they get emotional or abusive."? Really, stand watie, I would have expected better from you. However, I also know that if x keeps you engaged, you'll drop the "ignorant BILGE" & save it for a KKK rally (them, not you) or even your local democratic/NOW/move-on.org/Earth! First protest walking down Main street. You'll come back with something well thought out & worded to provoke response. I just wonder how long one can keep trying a rational exchange of ideas before quitting because the abuse.

[driveserve]

Thanks for the three:

#1) I'll need a little more detail as to the leftist programs you speak of but I will name a WALKING leftist program out of the South: Jimmy "Bucky" Carter. Where did you guys find this moron? And don't dare deny that he's a real southerner. Christ! That man(?) should have been deported to Nicaragua years ago. Charged with treason or at least felony-pacifism. Did you vote for him? Or only the lefty-southerners? Oh yeah. No such thing...

2) Whether income-taxes came from the south or the north is not an issue. Taxes are immoral and hurt everyone including the poor, the rich, southerners and your fellow countrymen in the west, east AND north (Countrymen. You gotta wrap yourself around that one, watie).
I think taxes (especially income) should be abolished for everyone! Including you, you secessonist anachronism. Taxes hurt us all.

3) Abortion...That it didn't originate in the South is true. But it didn't originate in the North either. Abortion has been around for millenia & is not a cause but a symptom of a societal pathology, commonly called "respect for life" or the lack thereof. Those societies that did not have the "respect for lfe" (or the "culture of life", if you prefer)did not, well, call themselves societies for long. And I do believe that slavery, as practiced by those southern states you hold in such high regard, fell under the "lack thereof" part. Would you disagree that reducing human life to the level of private property is prima-facie, a lack of a respect for life? It would follow that you would considering the grudge you hold against "yankee scum" and your people didn't even suffer that "peculiar institution".

Although you didn't innumerate it, I think #4 should address your "just leave us, our churches, our schools, our battleflags/memorials/burial sites & our families ALONE. period. end of story."
I agree. I for one will not dictate from afar the Confederate flag controversy. I believe that should be left to the affected states to decide, along with abortion, taxes, welfare, ad naseum. And if I'm not mistaken, most of the folks here on this site, Northerners & all, would agree with me & therefore with you (Of course, I just opened myself up to a whole lotta grief if I'm wrong. Anybody want to help me here?) I think that the citizens of your state should decide the flag issue. But y'all got to remember, there's one helluva large segment of Native Southerners with roots as deep as yours, that don't like that flag one iota. They're part of the states' citizens too. You guys need to work it out on your own. I'll do my part to keep Uncle Sam out of it.


ps: Thank you "x" for the compliment & sorry for not posting it earlier.

[driveserve]

"i've "waved my magic wand", changed places with & made driveserve and "HONORARY INJUN" for the day.

let's see how he/she sees things NOW. will he/she be an APOLOGIST for the damnmyankess or not???"

I must apologize stand, I completely forgot to answer this post. My wife has me jumpin' like a frog this week (Ok. EVERYWEEK!)...

Anyway, I see your point & can understand how & why you think the way you do. As a practicle matter however, the exercise is is useless: I see through my own eyes. My experiences. My knowledge (such as it is). While I can understand your points, they do not make any real sense in that they're mostly extreme in their emotional content. It goes back to what I said regarding "rational" discussions. It is not rational to be calling those that disagree "apologists" or those, long dead, "scum". You've chosen to place yourself on a perceived moral high ground by identifying yourself as a victim. A victim has, by default, the moral high ground anywhere he goes when that label is worn for all to see. But it becomes an offensive weapon when that "victim" uses his status to bludgeon those around him who disagree. Somewhat ironic don't you think? Stop using your "Indian eyes" to make your point. Use your intellect. God gave us all intellect. Even victims.

[driveserve]

BTW: I do not nor could if I wanted to, be an apologist for that which is history. I do not side with the South nor North. I only see the history of it all & try to learn more. It's over. The Civil War settled a lot of questions regarding the "States' Rights". In that history is written by the winners, I'd point out that it didn't seem to do very well in your case. What books did you read? I do however have a good time wondering where we'd all be today if the South had won. Mexico maybe?

[driveserve]

"i DO get PMs from him/her"

I give you PMS? My oh my! What an admission!

For the record, you do nothing of the sort to me. You do pique my interest however. On the other hand, what is it about a stranger's arguments that gives you PMS? Do those arguments ring any bells as you contemplate them. Does your well defended wall get penetrated? Does your victim's logic feel threatened? I do not expect you to answer but I do expect you to keep it coming. Dude, let's rock...

[stand watie]

"x" is nothing more or less than a shill for the extremist,hateFILLED,arrogant,self-righteous, statist, REVISIONIST damnyankees, even though he/she may not understand that he/she is. (i've been reading his/her drivel for years.)

every post made by "x" portrays the southland as the demon & lincoln & his coven of criminals as the "oh, so wunerful,wunerful ones", who were/ARE always perfect in every way.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

1. sadly, i must agree about "jimmy" (i briefly knew him in the 1970s, when i was active with the VFW & DAV). he is regarded as an EMPTY-head & a well-meaning FOOL by most southerners. my rottweiler would have made a better POTUS, despite the FACT that he was an adequate governor for GA.

2.the impetus for the "graduated income tax" came out of Harvard College at the turn of the 20th century. the income tax was sold as a TEMPORARY measure to pay for WW1. sorry, but the north "owns" the IRS. deal with it.

3.YES, abortion has existed for a VERY long time as a CRIME. it was the extremists out of the northeast , like margaret sanger for example, who promoted/funded/agitated for "abortion on demand". FEW southerners of ANY political/social/academic group favor MURDER of the UNborn "on demand".

4. absent the "hit pieces" in the mainSLIME media, outside agitation & MONEY from the northeast, we southerners could PEACEFULLY resolve our problems on the CSA flag & all the allied issues. (my guess is that a referendum of all 13 states would be PRO-flag/PRO-memorials). the "leaders of the northeast" do NOT want peaceful resolution to ANY question. what they want is POWER,$$$$$$$ & PERMANENT conflict on every social issue.

i was one of the leaders (for the SCV) during the 2001 "CSA flag fight" in SC & i KNOW what occurred there. the VAST majority of ANTI-flag extremists were, from an examination of their license tags, from CT,MA,NJ & NY. by actual count on the day of the TWO FLAGS RALLY (the anti-CSA flag group), 104 of 108 vehicles in one of the parking lots/rally points were from out-of-state! one of the other large parking lots had NO vehicles with SC plates.

like i said, we want the damnyankees to GO HOME & stay out of our lives!

we'll solve our own problems. you stay home & solve YOURS!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

nonsense.

we Indians ARE victims of the intentional abuse & a pattern of criminal behavior by the federal government for over 250 years. NOTHING will change that fact EXCEPT changes "of the heart" & in the government/BIA. nothing you can say trumps that one ESSENTIAL TRUTH. and YES we have the MORAL high ground.

also, as i've said before if it was YOUR family that was slaughtered, you'd feel differently. it is HARD/impossible to be "intellectual" when it is your own flesh & blood AND when "the powerful" either DENIES the TRUTH or continues to believe that it was the VICTIM's fault.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

PMs = private messages to us "vets" of FR.

i assume you know that.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

btw, i UNDERSTAND about "jumping" for your XYL! duckie does the same to me! rotflmRao.

it makes life INTERESTING!

free diixe,sw

[driveserve]

"PMs = private messages to us "vets" of F"

I stand (watie) corrected. All apologies...

[driveserve]

I'll get right back to you, gotta go!

[driveserve]

" we Indians ARE victims of the intentional abuse & a pattern of criminal behavior by the federal government for over 250 years. NOTHING will change that fact EXCEPT changes "of the heart" & in the government/BIA. nothing you can say trumps that one ESSENTIAL TRUTH. and YES we have the MORAL high ground."

Correction: you Indians were victims. It has taken a while & no doubt some distance still needs to be traveled but from what I see, y'all coming around quite nicely. Political power, a voice in how things are done, and a strong self-reliant spirit appears to be re-emerging after the long dark road the "evil" white-europeans started you on. It is nice to see Indians adopting Western values such as the Rule of Law & a Christian God while still remembering their history, ancestors, accomplishments & heritage. That, my friend, is where the moral high ground is. The high ground must be attained by your virtue. Not by proclamation of another's guilt.

---

"also, as i've said before if it was YOUR family that was slaughtered, you'd feel differently. it is HARD/impossible to be "intellectual" when it is your own flesh & blood AND when "the powerful" either DENIES the TRUTH or continues to believe that it was the VICTIM's fault."

FYI: My family was slaughtered. Although in a different place & time. For reasons that repeat through the centuries of mankind's existence. I have thanked God that somewhere back there enough survived to finally bring me into existence. I thank Him for my life. All your people, who were slaughtered, robbed, raped and everything else under the sun served a purpose for God, but only He knows what that purpose was/is. You're here aren't you? That's also God's purpose.

And one more thing...
You continue to give "the powerful" a whole lot of power over yourself by continuing to look to them for redress of THIER sins. They've given you nothing but heartache & rage all your life but you still look to them for some sort of apology that will allow you to forgive them? You have them right where they want you...

[stand watie]

!!!!!

[stand watie]

sorry, but 99% of Indians have little or no political power in ANY state. (not even in OK).

frankly, the government doesn't care about the needs of Indians & never will because there are FEW of us & most are INVISIBLE to the elites.

Pine Ridge Reservation (SD) has had several Indians starve to death this year & several die of freezing because they had no money to heat their house, ONLY because there was no work to be had, no money for food & no money for fuel.

what little assistance to the "poorest of the poor" has come from (mostly) other Indians through organizations like RUNNING BRAVE & THE AMERICAN INDIAN EMERGENCY FUND.

free dixie,sw

[driveserve]

"!!!!!"

What?

[driveserve]

"sorry, but 99% of Indians have little or no political power in ANY state. (not even in OK)."

So go out and get some. Stop whining.
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"frankly, the government doesn't care about the needs of Indians & never will because there are FEW of us & most are INVISIBLE to the elites."

Frankly, I don't care. Not that I am a calloused sob or that I hate Indians or anyone else for that matter. I just don't think of or worry my pretty head all day long about the plight of the Indians. I've my own plight. And I bet that's just the case for most Americans. Until something burns through our day to grab our attention (9/11), we're pretty much trying to survive to dinner-time. You're not only invisible to the elites, your just plain invisible. It's not evil Northerners, racists, blue scum or anyone else. We all can do just so much & that usually revolves around our families, communities & the occasional Clinton impeachment.
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"Pine Ridge Reservation (SD) has had several Indians starve to death this year & several die of freezing because they had no money to heat their house, ONLY because there was no work to be had, no money for food & no money for fuel"

A sad story. Tell me, whose fault is it? People die everyday. They freeze. They starve. They get hit by random bullets fired by some drunk Indian shooting up the bar that threw him out. Whose fault? The government's? The very people to whom you look for work? For money? For a way out of your miserable existence? Watie, you're ceding way too much power to them.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
"what little assistance to the "poorest of the poor" has come from (mostly) other Indians through organizations like RUNNING BRAVE & THE AMERICAN INDIAN EMERGENCY FUND."

As it should be. The federal & state governments have no business helping the poor. That's for local communities to do. Charitable orginizations. The government's job is to make it easy & attractive for the citizens to help those less fortunate. Remember, the government has no money of it's own. It's all taken (by force) from those who have it. I should be able to freely give to those whom I choose.

You keep complaining about the government's intrusion into your lives but you just can't stop looking to it for remedy of your problems. Make up your mind...

[stand watie]

whose fault is the pitiful situation at Pine Ridge?====>the federal government's fault, that whose.

until the government allows Indians to do things for themselves , starts treating us EQUALLY as other citizens are treated & gives us our TRUST MONEY back ( about TWO BILLION DOLLARS), nothing is going to change for the better on any reservation.

you might look at the way that the BIA treats Indians. THAT is what YOU have to look forward to as a white American if the socialist/statist/LIBs get their way!

free dixie,sw

[driveserve]

1) If the gub'ment owes you money, they should give it back & right now. It's not theirs.

2) They should treat you equally. As other citizens. I AGREE!
In fact, you should all be made citizens!

Revoke the Sovereign status of the reservations (which was a crime -- a human rights violation of the first order) and have you all equal under the law. Would you voluntarily relinquish the reservation system we know today for a future that has no BIA? Equal political power as citizens? The money that was kept from you (for "your own good", no doubt) returned so that you can make of it what you will?

The flip side, of course is that you would have the responsibilities of citizenship (too numerous to post here).


Looks like you & I agree my friend. How's sez you?

ps: Who said I was white?