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To: Non-Sequitur
the Constitution, which they agreed to abide by, gives jurisdiction on matters of law and equity arrising under the Constitution to the Supreme Court.

It sure does. Operative word, "under". Not everything is "under" the Constitution. The People can convene at any time, with or without their legislatures or the national legislature's acting, to unmake the Constitution -- everyone recognizes this. If all the people in America were determined to abolish the Constitution, they could do it, even if their legislators didn't cooperate. The logical sequel being, that they have a power superordinating the Constitution, in order to operate on the Constitution. Otherwise, the Constitution could never be amended.

People, up here. Constitution, down there. Supreme Court, somewhere below that.

And that extended to matters between the citizens of several states or matters where the United States is a party. To the Supreme Court. Not the state courts, not to you, not to the mob, but to the Supreme Court.

Oh, so now the People are "the mob"? Smoking you out, am I?

Ah, yes, the Supreme Court -- with Salmon P. Chase and four other Lincoln-appointed justices sitting up there, Chase with the presentation gavel in his hand, lovingly inscribed, "With complete confidence that you will catch our backs, A. Lincoln."

Yeah, right.

Well, for one thing, as I explained above, the People themselves and their superordinating power over the Constitution, which is a reserved power, by the way -- you didn't think we weren't going to talk about reserved powers, did you? -- are absolutely ultra vires, no matter what commercial disputes over frozen chickens the Court might be called on to referee among citizens of various States.

You're correct in this, that as long as a State is in the Union, they are under the Constitution and can't not be under it and must abide by the Supremacy Clause. But you have no tool and no document with which to strip the People of a State of their reserved power, their right, to take their State out of the Union if they wish.

If they can't, then the People are not sovereign, and somebody else is. If the Supreme Court be invested with the powers you say it has, to unmake plebiscites and set the will of the People at defiance, then by operation of logic, the Supreme Court is the Sovereign of the United States, and "the laws of England are in my mouth," as the bard once wrote.

840 posted on 01/12/2005 4:37:12 PM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Not everything is "under" the Constitution. The People can convene at any time, with or without their legislatures or the national legislature's acting, to unmake the Constitution -- everyone recognizes this.

Not everyone.

If all the people in America were determined to abolish the Constitution, they could do it, even if their legislators didn't cooperate. The logical sequel being, that they have a power superordinating the Constitution, in order to operate on the Constitution. Otherwise, the Constitution could never be amended.

The process for amending the Constitution is clearly outlined in the document itself.

Ah, yes, the Supreme Court -- with Salmon P. Chase and four other Lincoln-appointed justices sitting up there, Chase with the presentation gavel in his hand, lovingly inscribed, "With complete confidence that you will catch our backs, A. Lincoln."

So your arguement is that only Supreme Court decisions that you agree with are valid. Where is that written down?

Well, for one thing, as I explained above, the People themselves and their superordinating power over the Constitution, which is a reserved power, by the way -- you didn't think we weren't going to talk about reserved powers, did you? -- are absolutely ultra vires, no matter what commercial disputes over frozen chickens the Court might be called on to referee among citizens of various States.

Bullshit.

842 posted on 01/12/2005 4:45:46 PM PST by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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