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To: lentulusgracchus; Non-Sequitur
"You saying the other States had to leave the Union, too, for secession to have been legitimate?"

Unilateral secession is never legitimate. However, Chief Justice Chase suggested there is a lawful way to leave the Union - with the consent of the other states.

"The Southern States were within their rights to leave the Union if they wanted to. It was the essence of freedom."

Unilateral secession was the essence of anarchy. You can repeat your mantra over and over again, but secession remains unlawful as a matter of law and condemned as a matter of history.

1,194 posted on 01/16/2005 2:43:11 AM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: capitan_refugio
Unilateral secession is never legitimate. However, Chief Justice Chase suggested there is a lawful way to leave the Union - with the consent of the other states.

Oh, yeah, right. "Oh, no, that's the red broom of the Wicked Witch of the West. I specifically asked <lie like a dog> for the green broom of the Wicked Witch of the West." </dog>

Argument of the form, "Anything other than what actually happened would actually have been legally Okay -- but what you did was legally Not Okay, because screw you."

Don't patronize us.

1,222 posted on 01/16/2005 4:31:29 PM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: capitan_refugio; Non-Sequitur
[You, quoting me] "The Southern States were within their rights to leave the Union if they wanted to. It was the essence of freedom."

Unilateral secession was the essence of anarchy. You can repeat your mantra over and over again, but secession remains unlawful as a matter of law and condemned as a matter of history.

No, it wasn't and isn't.

How else do you get out of a jam, when a majority of other States gang up to turn you into the national cesspit, dumping ground, and low-rent district? If you are getting a raw deal from the Union, there is only one cure and one avenue of redress, in the face of unified determination to make your State the national chump and designated loser: leave the Union.

It recalls the old adage about two wolves and a sheep having a democratic discussion and vote about what to have for dinner.

Given the scenario above, what is your solution?

Given a State that is being manifestly abused, obviously oppressed, and moreover is being abused by an unshakable majority in the Congress, who have amended the Constitution over your objections to allow your mistreatment; given a President who has come to the reluctant but highly statesmanlike decision that your State must suffer without recourse or reprieve pro bono the rest of the Union, what do you do? Are you free, or is your State a thrall to the others -- a Cinderella, a charboy, a slave?

Secession is the cure for mistreatment by the rest, and that solution was left available to the States by the Framers. Jefferson realized that the Union might break up someday, and he wished everyone well, whether as part of one Union, or two, or three. The bottom line is the People's freedom, safety, and happiness -- which they are sovereign to ensure however they can.

If you don't believe that, then you're as big a totalitarian and empire-builder as Non-Sequitur is.

1,230 posted on 01/16/2005 4:50:45 PM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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