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To: shubi

There is no theory of macroevolution.
Micro and macro are the same process.

B: Sorry Shubi, but this requires a bit more explanation. It is a source of confusion, not only for creationists, but for scientists as well.

B: Macroevolution is concerned with the splitting of lineages and long term trends in the fossil record. To explain some of these trends, GOuld, Eldrgidge, Stanley and others have proposed processes which operate on top of the microevolutionary processes with which you're familiar. The most often written about one of those is "species selection". Species selection is anologous to the selection that takes place within a population, but on the level of species. Species which are more fecund (in terms of spawning new species) will influence subsequent evolution more, than species which are not prone to splitting. Other things which effect the course of evolution, include macorevolutionary processes like "mass extinction".


B: What it boils down to, to a certain extent, is different levels of abstraction. For example, all chemical processes are ultimately reducible to the laws of quantum mechanics. This is why Physicists often joke that Chemistry is a solved problem. On the other hand to describe a simple chemical process such as dissolution of salt in water on a purely quantum basis would tax even the largest supercomputers. If you want to understand things like that, chemistry is the appropriate level of abstraction. You won't make much headway if you use QM, even though at its most basic level this process is governed by QM.

B: GOuld and others argue (and correctly IMHO, if that has any weight) that trends in the fossil record require a different level of abstraction to be explained rather than using microevolution. Still, one aspect of macroevolution, speciation, is indeed reducible to microevolutionary processes. But macroevolution is more than just *speciation*. Creationists caricature this difference as meaning micro and macro are completely different and unrelated processes. I hope I've been able to illustrate why this is false, and how micro and macro are related, and how they are different.

B: For more information, I suggest "Macroevolution" by Steven Stanley and "Extinction" By David Raup. After reading those, you will certainly be up to speed on this issue.


854 posted on 12/21/2004 1:24:49 PM PST by bigdakine
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To: bigdakine
I hope I've been able to illustrate why this is false, and how micro and macro are related, and how they are different.

Good post - the terminology is laid out nicely.

Creationists caricature this difference as meaning micro and macro are completely different and unrelated processes.

I don't know what other Creationists are saying but, as a biblical literalist, I don't find enough historical time for macro.

856 posted on 12/21/2004 1:43:05 PM PST by derheimwill (Love is a person, not an emotion.)
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To: bigdakine

I think I understand macroevolution better than you do.
Besides being a minister, I am also a biologist.

Micro and macro are the same process. It is allele frequency changes in populations over time. Macro is simply the result of accumulations of micro changes.

IT IS THE SAME PROCESS!!! SAME!!!!!!!


859 posted on 12/21/2004 2:00:29 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: bigdakine

"But macroevolution is more than just *speciation*. "

Not really. Since speciation is the only step from one "form" to another, it is only speciation that macroevolution describes. When you get into Genus and above it is simply multiple steps of divergence through speciation.

OK?


862 posted on 12/21/2004 2:05:19 PM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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