Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

To: bobdsmith
"Or the law of causation does not apply to the origin of the universe, because the law of causation requires time to preceed the event in order that it can work.
The beginning of time is literally an event without a cause, because time did not exist before the event. "

Are you suggesting that by some fluke, that at one point actual time did not exist, that seconds, and hours, and days and all other units of time were simply meaningless. That is impossible with the fact that the space the universe is now contained in must have existed forever. Therefore time must exist at all points along the number line of time. What you suggest, is that time is not a line, extending in both directions, rather that it is a ray or segment. that it begins at some point. The phrase "beginning of time" is not literal, rather it refers to the point where the universe was created upon the number line of time. Time cannot simply exist at one point and then *poof* not exist.

"The law of causation is a rule we have made because every event we have ever observed, we also observe a cause. So we assume it is always true and turn it into a universal law."

I drop a can. Gravity causes the can to fall. Therefore gravity exists. Saying that the laws of physics can suddenly not exist is more of a leap of faith than I am willing to take.

"But applying laws to places or times that are very different to the one we observe the laws holding may not be reasonable. "

And yet your theory that time at one point did not exist has zero evidence to support it, whereas my theory that the laws of physics are, and must remain a constant does have evidence to support it.

"It's like observing that every mark on a long tape measure has a mark preceeding it. So we make the rule "every marked inch on the tape measure has a marked inch before it" and if we stick to around the middle area of the tape measure, it will hold true for every point we test. But as soon as we test the beginning of that tape measure, we find that the rule no longer works there. An exception which should have been considered seeing as the beginning of the tape measure is a unique place."

This is a very poor analogy. In this analogy a tape measure is used to represent time. On your tape measure we know that there are points that are not marked. For example, there is no -1 in. mark on your tape measure, but we know there is a point that is 1 inch before where the tape measure begins, in just the same fashion, there is a point before the "creation" where time exists.
130 posted on 12/03/2004 10:24:36 PM PST by conservative_crusader (Annuit Coeptis (He has smiled on our undertaking))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 128 | View Replies ]


To: conservative_crusader

"Are you suggesting that by some fluke, that at one point actual time did not exist, that seconds, and hours, and days and all other units of time were simply meaningless. That is impossible with the fact that the space the universe is now contained in must have existed forever."

The universe is not contained in any space. Space and time exist within our universe. The universe contains -everything- we observe: space, planets, stars, time, matter is all part of the universe.
If time began at the start of the universe, then there is no such thing as "before the universe", because a point cannot exist in time without time existing.

"The phrase "beginning of time" is not literal, rather it refers to the point where the universe was created upon the number line of time. Time cannot simply exist at one point and then *poof* not exist.
The universe contains "everything" and this includes time.
Time is a part of the universe so whenever time has existed, so has the universe. What you are talking about is that for an infinite amount of years no space, stars or planets existed. Your creation event is not the beginning of the universe, it is the beginning of space and matter. In this regard you are essentially saying that the universe has existed forever, but only very recently has matter and space appeared.

"I drop a can. Gravity causes the can to fall. Therefore gravity exists. Saying that the laws of physics can suddenly not exist is more of a leap of faith than I am willing to take."
You have only demonstrated that the law of gravity worked in that one example. You only assume on faith that it will again, and does elsewhere in the galaxy. But it is unreasonable to assume otherwise.

"And yet your theory that time at one point did not exist has zero evidence to support it, whereas my theory that the laws of physics are, and must remain a constant does have evidence to support it."
Well space and time are pretty intertwined with one another. I imagine that it is a large possibility that before space existed, neither did time. Especially considering there would be no frame of reference for it to exist.

"This is a very poor analogy. In this analogy a tape measure is used to represent time. On your tape measure we know that there are points that are not marked. For example, there is no -1 in."
Okay if you want to get picky then say the tape measure is a gradient of color from blue to red. You make the rule "each color is preceeded by a bluer one". But the beginning of the tape measure is unique, it is pure blue and no possible bluer color preceeding it.



135 posted on 12/04/2004 7:04:52 AM PST by bobdsmith
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson