Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

To: GOPcapitalist
"Exactly what is it about the phrase "TOTALLY DISSOLVED" that you do not understand, capitan?

I can see you need another lesson in history. Maybe, in the future, you won't make such an a-hole out of yourself.

Professor Gordon S. Wood is arguably the living authority on the American Revolutionary period. Here is how Wood describes the period, with reference to the constitutions being written by the colonies. This is excerpted from The Creation of the American Republic: 1776-1787.

"As the royal governments disintegrated after fighting broke out in the spring of 1775, the need for some sort of new government in several of the colonies became pressing, and radical-minded men made the best of necessity. 'You have no government, no finances, no troops,' wrote on Virginian in the summer of 1775. 'Turn then you thoughts, I beseech you, to the formation of a constitution.'....[I]n May 1775 Massachusetts applied to the Continental Congress for the 'most explicit advice, respecting the taking up and exercising the powers of civil government.' This was ticklish business and the Congress moved cautiously - too cautiously for some like John Adams.... [I]n the fall of 1775 New Hampshire and South Carolina both sought the sanction of the Congress to form governments. By the end of the year the Congress had recommended to both soliciting colonies and to Virginia ... that each call a full and free representation of the people to form whatever government it thought necessary, 'during the Continuance of the present dispute between Great Britain and the Colonies.'

"Even though the revolutionary-minded were hardly satisfied with the wording of these resolutions, they realized that Congress's action was 'a Tryumph and a most important Point gained' in the movement toward independence.... Throughout the fall of 1775 and the winter of 1776 discussion of the necessity and advisability 'of revolutionizing all the Governments' grew more and more frequent, both within the walls of Congress and even out-of-doors. By April the colonists not only had heard of Paine's call for independence but also were reading John Adams Thoughts on Government, which now proved , said Richard henry lee, 'the business of framing government not to be so difficult as most people imagine.' Early in may independence seemed clearly to be just a matter of time and manner.... [W]ithin two weeks Virginia began work on a new government and ordered delegates in congress to introduce a resolution for independence. At the same time the radicals intensified their pressure on the Congress, as the best - perhaps the only - means of moving the balky proprietary colonies and of bringing about a continental independence.... For, as John Adams told his wife, 'No colony, which shall assume a Government under the People, will give it up.'

"the fruit of their efforts was the congressional resolution of may 10, 1776, advising colonies to adopt new governments 'where no government sufficient to the exigencies of their affairs have been hitherto established.' This was capped on May 15 by a preamble declaring 'that the exercise of every kind of authority under the ... Crown should be totally suppressed,' and calling for the exertion of 'all the powers of government ... under the authority of the people of the colonies.' A momentous step - and many Americans realized it....

"[O]nce the path was opened by the Continental Congress, the formation of new government was remarkably rapid.... Framers in Virginia were likewise already at work on a new government when the general resolutions of May 10 and 15 gave them a new and broader sanction for their constitution adopted on June 29. And with the May resolves, and the Declaration of Independence, the other states followed successively."

I don't expect a loud-mouth intellectual pipsqueak like yourself to understand Gordon Wood, but let me point out a couple of the salient points:

(1) Prior to the Declaration of Independence, the political entities were called, and called themselves "colonies." Colonies are never independent and sovereign. None of the American colonies were "states" prior to the Declaration.

(2) Forming an autonomous government is not, in itself, a declaration of independence. For instance, from the 1840s to the 1860s, Canada was a self-governing colony of the United Kingdom, before forming the Dominion.

(3) You might have noticed, if you read the passage, the colonials turned to the Continental Congress for sanction to form colonial governments and write constitutions. That is not the action of a independent and sovereign state either.

Your comprehension of historical reality is weak, and your documentation is nonexistent. You can keep your slurs to yourself, because you are demonstrably wrong on this point.

798 posted on 11/22/2004 10:55:51 PM PST by capitan_refugio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 775 | View Replies ]


To: capitan_refugio; lentulusgracchus
Professor Gordon S. Wood is arguably the living authority on the American Revolutionary period

You sure like these self-claimed "living authorities," capitan. Was there a dollar sale at the "living authority" bookstore or something? Or is that simply a term of convenience to assign to any and every source you quote so as to bolster its ad verecundiam value for want of any surer substance to what you post?

I also find it curious that your chosen passage provides a relatively standard timeline of the independence movement yet says absolutely nothing that could even remotely be construed as denying that, when Virginia said they were "TOTALLY DISSOLVED" with Great Britain they meant anything other than totally dissolved!

(1) Prior to the Declaration of Independence, the political entities were called, and called themselves "colonies." Colonies are never independent and sovereign. None of the American colonies were "states" prior to the Declaration.

BZZT! Wrong. Nor does your "living authority" of the hour suggest anything even remotely supportive of that. As I have ALREADY SHOWN YOU, the June 1776 Constitution of the COMMONWEALTH of Virginia (the name it is STILL officially known as today) uses the term "State" no less than four instances and "Commonwealth" no less than five.

That same document uses the term "colony" or "colonies" four times - three to refer to previous acts of the colonial legislature prior to its adoption and once to define the COMMONWEALTH's geography in relation to its neighbors, which were still "colonies" at the time.

Throughout the document it is also evident that, in enacting the constitution, Virginia became a commonwealth:

The government is to operate "according to the laws of this Commonwealth"
Commissions are to be granted "In the name of the Commonwealth of Virginia"
Government documents are to be affixed with "the seal of the Commonwealth"
Criminal indictments are to be stated "Against the peace and dignity of the Commonwealth"
All penalties and forfeitures previously owed to King George "shall go to the Commonwealth" now

Yet nowhere do we find anything about the laws of the colony, commissions in the name of the colony, the seal of the colony, indictments for crimes against the colony, forfeitures to the colony, or any reference to the colony whatsoever beyond that which is in the PAST TENSE. As of the adoption of that constitution before the Declaration of Independence passed, the colony of Virginia CEASED TO EXIST. It became a Commonwealth, or State, in its own right and by its own declaration.

(2) Forming an autonomous government is not, in itself, a declaration of independence.

No, but "totally dissolv[ing]" all existing ties to the former government sure is! You'll also note once again that your "living authority" of the hour says not a word that even remotely suggests otherwise despite your claim to be summarizing his content.

(3) You might have noticed, if you read the passage, the colonials turned to the Continental Congress for sanction to form colonial governments and write constitutions. That is not the action of a independent and sovereign state either.

No. It's the action of a colony seeking the advice of its like-minded neighbors. That South Carolina sends a message to its neighbors in Congress saying "guys, we're talking about declaring our independence from the King. What do you think about it? Wanna do the same with us?" in no reasonable way proves that in taking the step of independence itself they did not obtain it individually.

801 posted on 11/22/2004 11:23:19 PM PST by GOPcapitalist ("Marxism finds it easy to ally with Islamic zealotism" - Ludwig von Mises)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 798 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson