Commentary: Truth blown away in sugarcoated 'Gone With the Wind'

How interesting! I have led geological field trips in the Santa Ynez Mtns, and I always like to have the lunch stop at Nojoqui Falls. (I think we should let the other posters know the word Nojoqui is in the Chumash language - I think it is pronounced no-ho-wee.)

If your family goes back that far, I am willing to bet they know the Dibblee clan who own (owned?) Rancho San Julian. Tom Dibblee (now over 90 yrs old) knows those mountains back and forth. They probably know the Hollisters too.

Lincoln died a martyr to freedom.

Nobody's interested in your gushy lowbrow panegyrics, capitan. We are interested in the facts about Lincoln's beliefs though and one of those is the fact that he died a racist colonizer.

Because your part of Santa Barbara County has stayed pretty much rural, a lot of the old families are still around. It is a great heritage. Did you ever make it up Refugio Canyon to see the Reagan's Rancho del Cielo? It was originally known as the "Tip Top" Ranch when it was built in the 1880's. I think it might still be shown that way on the topographic maps.

I don't remember it. Most of your posts are fuzzy anyway. There was no "Battle of Fort Davis" - you made that up all on you own.

I don't remember it.

You probably wouldn't seeing as it disagrees with your chosen point of view.

There was no "Battle of Fort Davis"

Then what got "captured" to use your word and how did they do it?

Fort (Jefferson) Davis was captured by Union forces in August 1862, when a company of the California Column under Carelton, raised the Stars and Stripes over the compound.

I never suggested there was a battle, and the term "captured" does not require it. But we have been over this before. Please stop polluting the threads with your lies.

Fort (Jefferson) Davis was captured by Union forces in August 1862, when a company of the California Column under Carelton, raised the Stars and Stripes over the compound.

Who were the possessers that captured it from and by what means did they overcome those possessers?

CAMP ON RIO GRANDE, September 2, 1865.

Lieutenant BENJAMIN C. CUTLER,

Acting Assistant Adjutant-General, Franklin, Tex.:

LIEUTENANT; I have the honor to state that, in pursuance of instructions received from General James H. Carleton, commanding Column from California, I left this camp at 3 p. m. August 23 en route to Fort Davis. Encamped at 8 o'clock the same evening, having marched fifteen miles. Started at daybreak of the 24th and arrived at Eagle Springs at 9. 30 a. m., seventeen miles; found the springs filled with rubbish and carrion; by cleaning them out found water for men and animals. There being no grass in the vicinity, I left the springs at 4 p. m; marched about five miles and made a dry camp; grass abundant and good. Started at daybreak and marched wenty miles to Van Horn's Wells; found these wells entirely filled up; cleared out one of them, but found it impossible to obtain sufficient water for the men. Many of the horses beng unfit to proceed farther, I thought it best to go on from here with twenty men and picked horses, taking the ambulance with me. Accordingly I directed Lieutenant Haden to retrace his steps to Eagle Springs with the remainder of the detachment, to clean out the springs thoroughly, and to remain there eight days, unless he received other orders from me. If at the expiration of eight days I should not have returned or sent back an express, I directed him to return to the river and wait for me there two days and then proceed up the river and report to General Carleton. I left Van Horn's Wells at about 4 p. m. and arrived at Dead Man's Hole at about 2 a. m. ; found sufficient water for the animals, but not enough for a company; distance, thirty-five miles.

Started at 6. 30 a. m. and arrived at Barrel Springs at 3 p. m., having halted on the road to graze the animals. Found water enough at these springs for one company. Remained here that night, and on the next afternoon sent forward Corporal Bartlett, with one private and the Mexican guide, to find out the condition of affairs at Fort Davis, distant eighteen miles. They returned about noon the next day, having performed their duty in such a manner that if the fort had been occupied by the C. S. troops their (Corporal Bartless and party) presence could not have been discovered. They reported the fort unoccupied, and I, thinking it best not to send back for the company on account of the scarcity of water, proceeded to the fort. I found it entirely deserted, but in one of the buildings of the Overland Mail Company I found the dead body of a man lying on the floor. He had been shot through the body with a bullet and had an arrow wound on the head and one on the arm. From the appearance of the room I think that it has been used by the Confederate troops as a hospital, and this man left there sick and afterward killed by the Indians. I had the body buried. The fort appears to have been garrisoned by the C. S. troops since their first appearance in the country by at least a portion of one company. It also seemed to have been used as a rendezvous for sick soldiers, but they had all left with the last detachment for San Antonio.

The following is a description of the buildings at the fort: Five company quarters, about 80 by 25 feet; one story high; built of stone; thatched roof. Four of these buildings are in fair condition. The roof, doors, and windows of one have been burned. One guard house, about 80 by 25 feet; building stone; roof, doors, and windows burned. One quartermaster's store-house, about 100 by 20 feet, built of stone; roof, doors, and windows entirely destroyed; surrounded by several small buildings; use not know. One wooden or slab building, 30 by 16 feet; thatched roof; used as an adjutant' office. One wooden building, 36 by 27 feet, with kitchen and several small outbuildings; supposed to have been the commanding officer's quarters. On this building the flag was raised and kept up one day. One wooden building, 48 by 22 feet, withkitchen and outhouses attache; supposed to have been officers' quarters. One wooden building, 22 by 12 feet, with one small outbuilding, 10 by 14 feet. One wooden building, 36 by 18 feet; one outbuilding, 14 by 12 feet; one slab building, 40 by feet; one slab building, 50 by 14 feet; one slab building, 20 by 12 feet; one slab building, 20 by feet; one slab building, 30 by 15 feet; one outhouse, 10 by 12 feet; seven small slab outhouses; one slab stable, 50 by 14 feet; one stone and mud house; three small slab buildings. One Overland Mail measurements, as I had no other means of doing. One Overland Mail station, consisting of house, store-house, shop, stable, saddlery, granry, &c. ; one adobe building, formerly used as a store. Many of the doors and windows have been destroyed. Some seem to have been hauled off; others burned. One wagon stands loaded with lumber. I have heard a report, in fact, that the entire fort was sold by the C. S. Officers to some party at Del Norte, Mexico. Property consists of some iron in quartermaster's store-house, some 100 horseshoes, two old citizen wagons, several wagon and cart wheels, empty barrels, several chains, many hospital bedsteads, but all broken or in a dilapidate condition. I started from the fort on my return at daylight of the 30th and marched to Dead Man's Hole; watered the animals, and made a dry camp in the prairie.

Left camp at 9 a. m. and marched about ten miles, when an Indian made his appearance with a white flag, followed by five others, all mounted. I tried to hold a talk with them, but they seemed unwilling the have anything to say, they being followed by twenty-five or thirty more mounted men, and still farther behind was a large party on foot, and it being evident that their only intention was to gain time and delay us until they could surround us, coming toward us in every direction, a large proposition of them mounted. Wishing to get rid of the footmen, I made a running fight of it, expecting the mounted men to follow, which they did for a short distance; but men to follow, which they did for a short distance, but finding it too hot for them, they returned. They left 4 men dead on the field, 2 of them the leaders, respectively, of the mounted and foot men. I have good reason to believe that at least 20 were wounded. I had 2 men wounded, 1 slightly and 1 painfully, by a pistol-ball in the shoulder. I had also 1 horse wounded. I then came on to Eagle Springs, where I arrived at 11 p. m., watered all my animals, and found that Lieutenant Haden, with the remainder of the command, had left for the river several days before. Encamped for the remainder of the night, and on the next day proceeded to the river, arriving there about 5 p. m., and found Lieutenant Haden, with the remainder of the command, he stating that he could not find sufficient water at Eagle Srings for the use of the animals. I omitted in the foregoing report to state that about ten miles from Van Horn's Wells I met two Mexicans coming this way. I arrested them and brought them to this camp, where I released them, and they went on up the river and will report to General Carleton in person.

I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

E. D. SHIRLAND,

Captain Company C, First California Volunteer Cavalry.

HEADQUARTERS COLUMN FROM CALIFORNIA, Fort Craig, N. Mex., September 9, 1862.

General E. R. S. CANBY:

I received the order to go to Santa Fe to relieve you in the command of the Department of New Mexico at Franklin, Tex., at 10 p.m. on the 2nd instant, and started the following morning for that city.

I arrived here last night, and shall leave this post this evening and endeavor to arrive at Santa Fe, say, by the 16th or 17th instant. Since I wrote to you on the 15th of August I marched with a small cavalry force down the Rio Grande to a point below Fort Quitman, where the San Antonio road leaves the river. I had heard that Colonel Steele, C. S. Army, had left some 50 or 60 wounded, sick, and disabled men at Fort Davis, on the Limpia River, and that these men were guarded by a company of troops of Mexican lineage, under command of a Captain Mararro, from San Antonio. I detached a portion of my command to proceed to Fort Davis to look after the wants of the sick, to capture the company,and to hoist the colors upon the fort. This force has returned, having found not a single living person at the fort, but having found one dead soldier in the hospital, who had evidently been left by his comrades and had afterwards been butchered by Indians. He had been shot in the head, and an arrow was still remaining in his body. The fort was very much dilapidated and had been left in great disarray.

It is said that Colonel Steele destroyed much of his ammunition and some of his wagons at Fort Bliss and more at Eagle in his hurried flight, as he had heard the California troops were in pursuit of him, and that you had sent a force to intercept him somewhere near the Pecos. The force which I sent to Fort Davis had a fight with some Mescalero Indians near that post. We had 2 men and 1 horses wounded. The Indians had 4 killed and 20 wounded. Captain Edmond D. Shirland, First Cavalry, California Volunteers, commanded the handful of men sent to Fort Davis. I recovered at El Paso some 12 wagons loads of hospital and quartermaster's stores which had formerly belonged to the United States. The Texan prisoners, 26 in all which I found at Franklin, I sent to San Antonio, starting them from Franklin on the 1st instant. They were furnished with provisions, transportation, and an escort.

I have the honor to be, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

JAMES H. CARLETON,

Brigadier-General, U. S. Army, Commanding.

While search the O.R. for a post to Gopc, I came across this interesting plan:

RICHMOND, VA., December 18, 1863.

Mr. PRESIDENT:

SIR: Accompanying this we have the honor respectfully to inclose a memorial from Judge L. W. Hastings, of California (now in this city), embodying an outline of certain propositions for the recovery of Arizona and New Mexico. We agree entirely in the obvious necessity for such and enterprise and readily concur in the practicability of the plans by him submitted. Judge H[astings] has resided in California upward of twenty years, and since its admission into the old Union has been a prominent and influential citizen of that State, holding various and important positions of public trust. We have the fullest confidence in his capacity and ability to accomplish all he may undertake, and believe the organization and direction of the proposed expedition can safely be instructed to him with every prospect of a successful consummation.

Trusting the considerations herein submitted may commend themselves to the approval of Your Excellency, we have the honor to remain, most respectfully, your obedient servants,

M. H. MACWILLIE,

Delegate Arizona Territory.

JNO A. WILCOX.

F. B. SEXTON.

M. D. GRAHAM.

W. B. WRIGHT.

W. S. OLDHAM.

[Inclosure.]

Proposition 1. - I will raise in California from 1,000 to 5,000 of superior troops with whom I will reduce Fort Yuma in that State, capture the U. S. troops, the military posts and all other Government property in Arizona, establish and maintain the Confederate Territorial government, hold permanent possession of the Territory, keep the thoroughfare open, and maintain an unbroken intercourse between the Confederate States and California.

Proposition 2. - I will raise in California from 3,000 to 10,000 of superior troops, with whom I will destroy Fort Yuma, in that State, capture all U. S. troops, military posts, and all other Government property in Arizona, and then, with the same force, march directly through the Mesilla Valley via El Paso to Texas, leaving small garrisons at proper intervals throuhgout the Territory merely to hold possession thereof in the name of the Confederacy. And by changing my mode of operations, places of departure, and line of march, I will throw an additional force into Texas from California at least every six months during this unholy war.

MODUS OPERANDI.

If the first proposition is adopted I will immediately return to California through Mexico by the same route by which I came. Upon arriving in California I will at once publish a small work in pamphlet form, descriptive of the mineral resources of Arizona and Mexico, claiming to have derived my information from personal observation during a residence of five years in Arizona and an extensive exploration made during the last six months in Mexico. At the same time I shall be constantly employed with many others in organizing mining companies both for Arizona and Mexico, who will propose to give free passage to their employes, deducting the amount from their wages. The parties organizing these companies shall be sterling Southern men, who will advertise for men generally, but will receive none but those favorable to the Confederate cause. This work will be published and the mining companies formed merely as a blind, while through the influence of secret organizations which now exist throughout the State the right kind of men will be sent on as mining companies by every steamer and sailing vessel to Mexico, and by every steamer, sailing vessel, and stage to Los Angeles. Those going via Los Angeles will cross the great desert in small companies and will rendeazvous on the Colorado River at or near Fort Yuma. Their destination will be the Colorado and Gila Rivers, and the mining regions adjacent thereto. When their numbers shall have increased to several hundreds they will be directed to reduce Fort Yuma, and tranfer everything pertaining thereto to the Arizona side of the Colorado River, enlist the prisoners favorable to the Confederate cause, parole those unfavorable, and then establish a permanent garrison at Arizona City. They will then be directed to seize the three steamers which now ply between the fort and the mouth of the Colorado, thus cutting off all possibility of Yankee invasion in that direction. By means of these steamers and the Government teams, which will already have been captured at Fort Yuma, the new garrison and all western Arizona may be easily and amply supplied. So soon as the above work shall have been accomplished, the troops, except a sufficient number to maintain the new garrison, will be ordered tio Tucson, when they will join the troops who have in the meantime arrived in the Territory via Mexico. The troops via Mexico will also be directed to obtain proper passports, abstain from all improper conduct, and to pass quickly through the country in small parties as mining companies, until they shall have reached the Territory of Arizona, where they will rendezvous near the line. When passing through the Mexican territory and when in rendezvous, they will purchase their supplies of the Mexican people. As soon as their number shall have increased to several hundreds they will be directed to reduce Fort Buchanan, leaving a sufficient force to maintain the same, and then the whole remaining force will be directed to march eastward to the Rio Grande, when they will also reduce the fort and establish a garrison. The civil government will then be put in motion and permanently maintained. If the second proposition is adopted, I will immediately return to California through Mexico by the same route by which I ceans will be employed to raise the troops. Fort Yuma will be destroyed, the steamers which are private property will be destroyed or bonded, and the prisoners disposed of as before. The whole force, together with stores, arms, munitions, &c., will then be moved into the interior to a point at or near Tucson, where they will be joined by the forces arriving via Mexico. Fort Buchanan will be destroyed, the prisoners disposed of as before, and a small garrison established at Tucson, when the whole remaining force, with arms, stores, &c., will be moved to the Mesilla Valley, when the fort in that vicinity will be reduced and the prisoners disposed of as before, leaving a small garrison at Mesilla; the whole force will then move directly on to San Antonio, Tex., or as otherwise directed by the proper authority. To enable me to accomplish either of the above objects, all that I require is the authority and means. If the first proposition is adopted, means to introduce and maintain the troops will be required. If the second is adopted means to introduce the troops will only be required.

(Formatting - or lack thereof - as in the original)

[You, quoting me] The flashpoint is the question of whether Southerners had any Fourth/Fifth Amendment property rights in slaves they held, that other people in the United States were bound to respect.

[You, replying] Absolutely not --whetever the Constitution says.

You disagree that rights, and the determination of the Abolitionists and freesoilers not to respect them, were not the crux of the War Between the States?

Notice what you are actually saying. I get it that you disagree with me -- but you might at least pay attention to what it is that I said, that you are disagreeing about.

The Declaration of Independence is our founding document and as sure as it declares the existence of our Nation it declares Americans are endowed by their Creator with the right to live our own lives.

Wrong in the first place. The United States is a compacted society, and the compact is the Constitution, not the Declaration nor the Articles of Confederation.

I see we are in the presence of a Declarationist. Well, here's news for you: Declarationism is a pile of humbug, the purpose of which is, as Bill Clinton once put it so brilliantly, to "find me a way around the Fourth Amendment". (He really said that.)

And no human, not even ourselves, "owns" our lives, unlike the Libertarian credo; we merely "are" our lives.

Says who? Thank you for your opinion.

Any idea that humans are property is without base in the America of the Declaration, no matter where anyone writes it.

Bzzzzzzttt!!! Sorry, you're incorrect. The men who wrote the Declaration of Independence owned slaves; they ought to have known what they were talking about -- whereas you, on the other hand, seem to be falling out with them.

There is law for America that is even higher than the Constitution. I have just referred to it.

Well, you are sort-of right. There is authority higher than the Constitution. Here is the pecking order:

1. God, the Logos, the Tetragrammaton, Providence.

2. The People = The States.

3. The Constitution created by the People in convention assembled (in their States, acting as the States).

4. The United States Government, its laws and decisions.

4a. The States of the Union, their laws, constitutions, and governments.

5. Everything else.

Defending the South about slavery is harldy a winning prospect. Not in the 19th Century. Not in the 20th Century. Not in the 21th Century.

The thing about rights is, respecting them when they belong to someone else, respecting them when you don't like them and they're inconvenient to your purposes, and respecting them when they belong to someone you don't like.

That isn't an epaulet on your shoulders. Knock it off, yourselves.

Your effort at snideness falls flat in this forum, where people have PhD's in snideness.

You guys lost-get over it!

Appeal to force (fallacy), and teleological fallacy.

Bzzzztt!! Four-Minute Penalty for fallacious argument.

Neither lived as long or were as prolific as Rhett, but they were equally as extreme.

You are quoting almost exclusively from the extremists, and assigning their motivations to the whole South. Rereading Alexander Stephens on the subject of secession would be more informative. Keep in mind that a lot of the big planters adhered to the Constitutional Union Party and John Bell's candidacy. Rhett and Toombs don't speak for "the planters" as a group, nor for "the slavocracy" (another name for the same group) as a whole.

Stop torquing up the picture. We don't care about your prejudices and defending Lincoln. Nor defending Toombs, for that matter. I'm more interested in following and understanding the interests at play. You, OTOH, are more interesting in vindicating Lincoln, the Rushmore school, and the National Greatness vision of corporatism rampant -- the "age of combinations", as John D. Rockefeller put it. The age of trusts, and cartels, and rings, and holding companies, and of "malefactors of great wealth".

Returning to Robert Rhett, your mentioning (correctly, I think) that Rhett received the mantle of Calhoun points out something that does not get fair treatment in your posts. You admit posting like a lawyer (to the ruin of your name), ex parte, and so perhaps it's expectable that you would refrain from pointing out that Calhoun was an exponent of Union, and that he undertook in 1850 to compromise the interests of his own class -- as did Webster -- for the cause of internal peace and an end to the agitation. But Calhoun's absorbing interest was the damage done by successful factionalism. He probably had the example of the Roman Republic before his eyes, but he succeeded to the mantle of Madison precisely because of his interest in the problem of faction.

Rhett received the mantle at a late date, when things were already in extremis because of Kansas-Nebraska and the very recent deaths of Clay, Calhoun and Webster. So perhaps it's difficult to recognize Madison in him; but Madison feared faction, too, and Rhett's position was that of a leader of a region threatened by the rising Northern business faction and Lincoln's success in concentrating the North's energies against the South using the wedge issue of slavery, to enact a program of National Greatness, or if you will, American System II, and (in my opinion) the eventual abolition of slavery against the South's best efforts.

I've said before, and I'll repeat it now, that I think Lincoln's platform planks about "containing the expansion of slavery" (which, pointedly and tendentiously harping on this theme precisely to corroborate and vindicate Lincoln, you pound endlessly and disingenuously in your posts) were just so much campaign rhetoric disguising a settled and deadly intention of universal abolition by force if necessary, which I have suggested he first articulated at the Republican convention of 1856 in his famously undocumented address. Just my opinion -- laying a marker for later, so I can say "I told you so" when the truth finally outs about Lincoln and the Civil War.

Interesting plan, good find. Two thoughts occur to me:

1. No plan survives first contact.

2. The man in California set the plan in motion by bringing it to the Confederates, rather than vice versa.

In so doing, by the way, the California judge was committing treason and pretty seriously exposing himself to execution if captured, in a way that e.g. the ANV officers never did. Lee, for example, resigned his U.S. commission before accepting a Virginia Militia commission, and that before a Confederate one. This man is levying war against the United States, from within a State of the Union, while serving in a position of trust in the civil government.

If the South had not anticipated expansion, or had given up on propagating slavery outside the boundaries of the existing Confederacy, then why is that verbiage there?

They may have included some language about New Mexico (assuming they could detach it from the United States Territories, not a given), but my central point remained undisturbed, that the South gave up on all the big Mountain West territories and the northern Plains States. Your quotation of the California adventure is interesting and no doubt historically accurate, but please notice that the plan was adventitious -- literally over-the-transom -- and not something long held in view by the CSA.

The South resigned its interest in most of the Territories and didn't make expansion an issue any more, after Lincoln's election.

The south just died. Period.

Not really. The South is still the fountainhead of popular culture, the soul of the country, and the home of NASCAR racing. And the old Battle Flag is instantaneously recognized around the world, as the flag of the South.

Thanks, I will accept you account of what happened.

Thanks, another poster also corrected me on that.

I had heard that the Confedercy had stated that Black Union soldiers would either be shot or sold into slavery.

Was any of that true?

Exactly correct.

Lincoln's words were that he believed that while the black woman should be allowed to keep the fruit of her labour, that did not mean he wanted to marry her.

Lincoln understood that civil equality would take longer then human equality, as set forth in the Declaration of Independence.

You guys lost-get over it! Appeal to force (fallacy), and teleological fallacy. Bzzzztt!! Four-Minute Penalty for fallacious argument.

No, an appeal to reality.

Uh, you guys do realize that you did lose-don't you?

bump