SSPX French District Reconciling with Rome?

Catholic World News AND Envoy Magazine Website ^ | 13 September 2004 | CWNews

[Mershon]

Traditionalist crisis draws cautious Vatican response

Vatican, Sep. 13 (CWNews.com) - Responding to a crisis within the schismatic Society of St. Pius X, Vatican officials are declining to make any official statement, but quietly reminding traditionalist priests that they can reconciled with the Holy See.

Divisions within the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) in France reached a peak on September 5 when the traditionalist group's leader, Bishop Bernard Fellay, announced the expulsion of two French priests who had criticized the Society's leadership. The expelled clerics-- led by Father Philippe Laguérie, the pastor of a large French traditionalist community-- had sharply criticized conditions inside SSPX seminaries.

[pascendi]

Referring back to Ecclesia Dei, anyone with a bit of a theological background can readily see that instead of being the formal excommunication that everyone ignorantly claims that it was, that the excommunication of the SSPX bishops was actually an assumption of latae sententiae excommunication. It was not an formal excommunication. The document says so itself.

It cited rejection of the papacy as the priniciple basis of the latae sententiae excommunication. But the bishops did not reject the papacy, and openly stated so. Therefore, the supposed basis for the excommunication did not exist.

Simply look at history and you will find Saints who have been "excommunicated" unjustly. Joan of Arc, Saint Athenasius to name two.

[GirlShortstop]

Bishop Felay last week announced the expulsion of Fr Philippe Laguérie, who had criticised conditions inside the Society´s seminaries.

Isn't that something?!  I can't help but wonder what the FR anti-living-Magisterium will think.    Too funny for words!

[pascendi]

"What do you know about this young man? And who made you the judge of his character? For one so immersed in traditional catholicism, you seem to have lost all sense of christian charity."

Who said anything about his character?

Look at what he wrote. It's not factually correct.

What you are doing here is to make it look like I attacked his character and lost charity. That's a bunch of garbage and you know it. You're just trying to deflect from the fact that Ostrowski didn't get his facts right.

When it comes to charity, getting facts right about a priest's history and memory is important. Jeff failed in that.

[sinkspur]

Controversies within the traditionalist movement have become widespread, an unnamed Vatican official noted, "particularly in the US, where small unattached congregations have formed." The crisis in France, he suggested, could demonstrate that the Lefebvrist movement has failed to establish a workable system of authority.

Here's confirmation of your theory, marshmallow.

Everybody in a breakaway movement wants to be the chief.

If he can't be, he just accuses everybody else of heresy, and becomes the chief of his own "independent" congregation.

Schisms always splinter. Always.

[pascendi]

Why can't you seem to focus on the facts?

[GirlShortstop]

Run your commentary by him, first, or be labeled a "neo-Catholic."

Lotsa labels, none of 'em stick.  TRUTH is what matters... it's the adhesive, or it ain't.

Pax et bonum.

[pascendi]

"Lotsa labels, none of 'em stick. TRUTH is what matters... it's the adhesive, or it ain't."

Yep. That's what I always say.

[Wessex]

So, the Envoy brigade are again attempting to put the squeeze on the SSPX by suggesting there is some disorder in its ranks which may eventually cripple the organisation and persuade the French district to knock on the door of Newchurch. The same was said when Aulagnier was expelled.
But priests come and go and it would be wrong to assume these expelled SSPX priests have suddenly gone soft on Newchurch. Quite the contrary, they have acquired the freedom to practice their own particular brand of Catholic traditionalism outside the SSPX. Interestingly, when there was rebellion within the ranks of the FSSP, the rebels won the day and the leadership was changed. Similarly, within Newchurch, any difference of opinion outside the Vatican often leads to Ratzinger having a rethink! Therefore, we must respect Fellay for exercising his authority within his own domain.

[GirlShortstop]

Referring back to Ecclesia Dei, anyone with a bit of a theological background can readily see....

Shouldn't someone with theological background then be able to share a more complete picture of what happened?

June 17, 1988:

Since on June 15th, 1988 you stated that you intended to ordain four priests to the episcopate without having obtained the mandate of the Supreme Pontiff as required by canon 1013 of the Code of Canon Law, I myself convey to you this public canonical warning, confirming that if you should carry out your intention as stated above, you yourself and also the bishops ordained by you shall incur ipso facto excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the Apostolic See in accordance with canon 1382.(83)

and then this happened:

declared by Cardinal Gantin in a decree from the Congregation for Bishops dated July 1, 1988, the day after the illicit consecrations. Acting in his official capacity on behalf of the pope, Cardinal Gantin solemnly declares:

Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre, Archbishop-Bishop Emeritus of Tulle, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning of 17 June last and the repeated appeals to desist from his intention, has performed a schismatic act by the episcopal consecration of four priests, without pontifical mandate and contrary to the will of the Supreme Pontiff, and has therefore incurred the penalty envisaged by Canon 1364, paragraph 1, and canon 1382 of the Code of Canon Law... Having taken account of all the juridical effects, I declare that the above-mentioned Archbishop Lefebvre, and Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta have incurred ipso facto excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the Apostolic See.

Anyway, back to my original question about the contradiction in your postings, did you answer, or pull off track to offer SSPX apologetics?  I do not see an answer in your reply, I'm sorry.

[Wessex]

"I'm all for a reconciliation. For years I have prayed for such a reconciliation."


The bottom line is there can be no reconciliation until Vatican II and Novus Ordo are both consigned to the dustbin.

[pascendi]

"Anyway, back to my original question about the contradiction in your postings, did you answer, or pull off track to offer SSPX apologetics? I do not see an answer in your reply, I'm sorry."

There are no contradictions in my above postings, far as I can tell. Which one are you referring to specifically?

[sinkspur]

The bottom line is there can be no reconciliation until Vatican II and Novus Ordo are both consigned to the dustbin.

From the Williamson wing, I see.

[pascendi]

It is possible to be unjustly excommunicated. It happen to Joan of Arc. It happened to St. Athenasius, in a situation highly comparable to Archbishop Lefebvre. It happened to Father Leonard Feeney, and it happened to Archbishop Lefebvre.

Archbishop Lefebvre was unjustly excommunicated for his efforts to uphold doctrine and tradition in the face of a regime of novelty and heresy that has wreaked devastation upon the Catholic Church. An unjust excommunication does not take effect.

[sinkspur]

It is possible to be unjustly excommunicated

Is it possible to be unjustly expelled from a breakaway movement?

[vetus vulpes]

Don't worry about it you NO's...there's not enough Catholics
left in France to fill a yugo...at least REAL traditional
Catholics anyhow.....GEEEEEEZH!! Heh heh heh!!

Vetus Vulpes(Ab hoste maligno defende me)

[Fifthmark]

Schisms always splinter. Always.

Your hope is coming across loud and clear.

[Mershon]

I'm not quite sure to what you refer, but I am in fact aware the Church attendance rate in France is about 5 percent or less. It will become Muslim soon. However, thanks to the FSSP and the SSPX, the Catholic Faith will continue, even if to martyrdom.

We must continue to pray that as the SSPX fragments (which of course it is bound to do since it does not recognize nor take orders from the Vicar, who is its head), more and more traditionalist priests and bishops will fight the battle from within the Church.

As for Traditional Catholicism. It is alive and well and blooming in Greenville, SC, which is my primary motivation currently.

[thor76]

The bottom line is there can be no reconciliation until Vatican II and Novus Ordo are both consigned to the dustbin.

Yes - but I would go further, to say that such a reconciliation cannot be possible, until and unless a Pope formally takes each and every document of Vatican II, and reconciles it with Tradition - clearing up any abiguity, which could possibly leave "wiggle room" for heresy or error to creep in. It is possible to do that: to weed out and correct them, so that they reflect in clear language the teachings of the church of the ages.

That is the biggest key: clear and unambiguous language.

As they stand now, you cannot realisticly tell what most of them are saying, as interpretation (even honest and unbiased ones) varies so widely.

The same holds true of the mass. Either there must be a return to The Tridentine mass - universally, or the Novus Ordo must be so revised, and purged of numerous options & innovations which make it suspect. Though, to be honest, I am not sure if that is practically or theologically possible.

[bornacatholic]

The bottom line is there can be no reconciliation until Vatican II and Novus Ordo are both consigned to the dustbin.

* Wouldn't that mean they were reconciled in the dustbin?

[Mershon]

"I would go further, to say that such a reconciliation cannot be possible, until and unless a Pope formally takes each and every document of Vatican II, and reconciles it with Tradition - clearing up any abiguity, which could possibly leave "wiggle room" for heresy or error to creep in. It is possible to do that: to weed out and correct them, so that they reflect in clear language the teachings of the church of the ages."

This has never been done in the history of the Church. This is the task of theologians. Whatever survives 200 years from now IS part of the deposit of Faith. Whatever is ignored or not repeated is... well.

The Pope has already explained the path forward in the motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei Adflicta".

"Moreover, I should like to remind theologians and other experts in the ecclesiastical sciences that they should feel called upon to answer in the present circumstances. Indeed, the extent and depth of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council call for a renewed commitment to deeper study in order to reveal clearly the council's continuity with tradition, especially in points of doctrine which, perhaps because they are new, have not yet been well understood by some sections of the church."