SSPX French District Reconciling with Rome?

Catholic World News AND Envoy Magazine Website ^ | 13 September 2004 | CWNews

[Mershon]

"it's" is "its"

Second, for new converts and re-verts, Envoy's light-hearted approach may suit fine their state in life.

And if we are going to continue to throw around the word "modernist," perhaps it would be good to be a little bit more definitive as to what we mean.

What do you mean? Biblical modernism or "the syllabus of errors" modernism? And please point out the passages you find "modernistic" from things written in Envoy.

[pascendi]

"We can only pray that both sides can set aside there pride and get this thing moving. They will be a great service to Holy Mother Church."

What would be a service to Holy Mother Church would be if the priests, bishops and the Pope himself returned to the ancient practice of working for the salvation of souls and the teaching and practice of authentic Catholic doctrine and tradition.

This hasn't been happening for quite some time now. Will the existing hierarchy off the Church compromise their Modernism by leaving it aside, and once again taking up the authentic apostolic charge?

Until Modernism itself is left of the bargaining table, all deals are perpetually off.

[marshmallow]

Rome would be smart to court this district. Make them part of the Vianney group. Peel them away one at a time until nobody's left but Williamson and Fellay and a small, wild-eyed group of resisters, who can be consigned to the fate of the Old Catholics.

History teaches us that once a schism occurs, it doesn't simply stop there. Further splits inevitably occur over time, followed by splits upon splits. The end result looks like an aerial view of the Amazon delta, with multiple small rivers and tributaries.

It's the nature of the beast. Protestations to the contray, the principal characteristic of schismatics is disobedience. The need to give rather than take orders always rises to the surface and this results in further splintering.

FSSP has already reunited, as has Campos in Brazil.

The future for SSPX involves progressively more splits. Some imitating FSSP and Campos, others involving various forms of sedevacantism and extremism.

[pascendi]

""it's" is "its"

Thank's.

"Second, for new converts and re-verts, Envoy's light-hearted approach may suit fine their state in life."

It stunts their growth.

[pascendi]

"By an odd coincidence, I also know a priest who met the Cardinal that lifted Fr. Leonard Feeney's excommunication, as Fr. Feeney lay on his deathbed. Very few people know that this priest, who denied the Council of Trent's teachings about Baptism of desire, came back to the Church at the end of his life."

It's almost as if he thinks he knows what he's talking about here. That's pretty funny.

[sinkspur]

Fr. Somerville is merely attempting to minister to traditional Catholics in a spirit of true ecumenism. Shouldn't we be as ecumenical to traditional Catholics as we are to false ordinations of schismatic and heretical sects?

Not when your bishop says no.

Catholic priests are not celebrating Anglican Masses, at least not with episcopal approval.

Somerville is needed to celebrate Masses for his own diocese. Yet, he's running around hobknobbing with Mel Gibson and using "The Passion" as justification for his disobedience.

[sinkspur]

The future for SSPX involves progressively more splits. Some imitating FSSP and Campos, others involving various forms of sedevacantism and extremism.

I think you're exactly right.

[pascendi]

"The future for SSPX involves progressively more splits. Some imitating FSSP and Campos, others involving various forms of sedevacantism and extremism."

Its as if you had no confidence in your ecumenism...

[sinkspur]

Its as if you had no confidence in your ecumenism...

On the contrary, you're seeing a fracture that may result in another reunion of a part of the SSPX with Rome.

Even the article states that there is a "good portion" of the SSPX priests and seminarians who want to be reconciled.

Rome appears to be just waiting out the hostage-takers as they fight with each other.

[Fifthmark]

Now, here, we see Fellay booting out two priests who had merely criticized him!

I know you have an itchy trigger finger given that we are discussing the SSPX, but you should probably reserve your judgment until a few more specifics trickle in, otherwise it may be deemed "rash." You'll also note, if you bothered to read further into the article, that the priests refused to transfer to new posts upon Bp. Fellay's order. This alone would be enough to warrant their expulsion.

[pascendi]

"On the contrary, you're seeing a fracture that may result in another reunion of a part of the SSPX with Rome."

They're not out of communion.

[pascendi]

"By an odd coincidence, I also know a priest who met the Cardinal that lifted Fr. Leonard Feeney's excommunication, as Fr. Feeney lay on his deathbed. Very few people know that this priest, who denied the Council of Trent's teachings about Baptism of desire, came back to the Church at the end of his life."

Father Feeney was "excommunicated" in 1972.

He died in 1978.

Jeff Ostrowski seems to think that Father Feeney was on his deathbed for 6 years. Typical NeoCatholic getting things all goofed up.

Another goof-up: Father Feeney's "excommunication" cited disobedience, not any point of heresy. It was lifted, 6 years before his death, via his recitation of the Nicene Creed, the Apostle's Creed, and the Athenasian Creed.

The first line of the Athenasian Creed is what I have been using for my tagline.

So much for Ostrowski's accuracy.

[pascendi]

"Father Feeney was "excommunicated" in 1972."

I meant to say his "excommunication" was lifted in 1972.

Sorry; my typical trad goof-up.

In other words, when Jeff says his "excommunication" was lifted on his deathbed, he's wrong. It was done 6 years prior to Feeney's death in 1978.

[GirlShortstop]

pascendi:  But then I wouldn't look to anyone other than the Church to determine what is of the Church, and what is not.

"On the contrary, you're seeing a fracture that may result in another reunion of a part of the SSPX with Rome."

pascendi:  They're not out of communion.

Hmm.  Two statements within less than an hour of one another, and seemingly quite contradictory.  Identify the authority please:

• who determines what is of the Church and what is not?
• who's determined that SSPX is in communion with Rome?  
  tip:  valid Sacraments from SSPX.... count 'em.

FReegards.

[bornacatholic]

I'm all for a reconciliation. For years I have prayed for such a reconciliation.

This past Sunday we heard the Prodidgal Son Gospel. Far be it from me not to celebrate and rejoice at the return home of my lost brothers and sisters.

[NYer]

Typical NeoCatholic getting things all goofed up.

What do you know about this young man? And who made you the judge of his character? For one so immersed in traditional catholicism, you seem to have lost all sense of christian charity.

[sinkspur]

Pasci has become the "sifter" on the religion forum.

Run your commentary by him, first, or be labeled a "neo-Catholic."

[Mershon]

"Catholic priests are not celebrating Anglican Masses, at least not with episcopal approval."

But there are indeed some joint Episcopal/Catholic parishes in the U.S.

But essentially, you are correct. No Novus Ordo priests offer Anglican Masses. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer is really more traditional than the Novus Ordo.

[bornacatholic]

Bishop Bernard Fellay, announced the expulsion of two French priests who had criticized the Society's leadership.

*It is a lie. They were never expelled. They are in communion with the SSPX. Those priests acted out of necessity to keep alive the Traditions of the SSPX. It is Bishop Fellay himself who is working to destroy the Traditions of the SSPX.

[Mershon]

Here is an update

http://www.cathnews.com/news/409/76.php

Schismatic group expels its own rebels

The late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre´s Society of St Pius X has been undergoing its own crisis of authority, with its leader Bishop Bernard Fellay being forced to expel two French priests who had criticised his leadership.

Bishop Felay last week announced the expulsion of Fr Philippe Laguérie, who had criticised conditions inside the Society´s seminaries.

Bishop Fellay, complaining that his critics were causing a breach of solidarity within the Society, ordered them to leave France, assigned them to new posts in Mexico. Father Laguérie refused, and was expelled.

Fr Laguérie, a pastor for 25 years, reacted to the expulsion order by charging that the SSPX leadership had indulged in an unjustified exercise of their power to stifle criticism, creating a crisis that would "put the entire Society in a very grave situation."

Catholic World News sources point out the the Vatican has no power to intervene in the dispute because there are no official ties between the Vatican and the Society.

The traditionalist group broke from Rome in June 1988, when its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, was excommunicated for ordaining bishops without a mandate from the Holy See.

Controversies within the traditionalist movement have become widespread, an unnamed Vatican official noted, "particularly in the US, where small unattached congregations have formed." The crisis in France, he suggested, could demonstrate that the Lefebvrist movement has failed to establish a workable system of authority.

The Vatican, which has made two significant moves to reconcile traditionalist Catholics in recent years, has not commented.

Pictured: Seminarians at Holy Cross Seminary, Goulburn NSW