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To: HarleyD
I wonder if the BBN would be so willing to remove Billy Graham, Pat Robinson, or Jerry Falwell for preaching that man can choose to accept or reject God? The church has lost its "sovereignty of God" perspective and in turn we no longer fear the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom.

I still don't see how that follows. Any sovereign can choose not to apply his will to every case; just because Nebuchadnezzar chose to allow the Jews to continue to worship God or to worship Babylon's gods of their own will without interference, does that make Daniel's statements that he was absolutely sovereign untrue?

Likewise, if God sovereignly chose to give us free will, whether to worship or reject Him, how would that disprove His sovereignty?

60 posted on 09/02/2004 9:34:58 AM PDT by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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To: Buggman
"Likewise, if God sovereignly chose to give us free will, whether to worship or reject Him, how would that disprove His sovereignty?"

Like Israel, the church was meant to serve God. Without casting dispersions at anyone (for I fail as well), I see little genuine sacrificial serving of God. Instead, since man has "free will", we have reduce God down into a "homeboy" rather than our leader and champion. God is still sovereign. We just no longer recognize it.

BTW-It was through listening to a tape on the sovereignty of God by John MacArthur that lead me towards the Calvinist side of the tracks.

79 posted on 09/02/2004 10:52:20 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: Buggman; HarleyD
Likewise, if God sovereignly chose to give us free will, whether to worship or reject Him, how would that disprove His sovereignty?

It wouldn't, but is would disprove Calvinist predestination. According to the GRPL, God's sovereignty is total only to the point where it conflicts with their view of predestination. If absolute predestination is not true, all of GRPL Calvinism must fall.

82 posted on 09/02/2004 11:01:24 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: Buggman
Likewise, if God sovereignly chose to give us free will, whether ...

Just so we are clear, Calvinists do not teach that our wills are not free because God didn't give us free wills. Calvinists teach that our wills are not free because of the fall.

Westminter Confession of Faith
CHAPTER IX
Of Free Will

I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

This chapter is very similar to the Augustinian and Lutheran views of man's will.
89 posted on 09/02/2004 11:35:37 AM PDT by topcat54
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