Posted on 08/30/2004 7:37:41 PM PDT by Nevski
My comments were more to P-Marlowe who states:
"In regard to the latter, each man shall be responsible for the light that he is given. As Jesus noted in John Chapter 9, to those who are truly blind, those to whom no light has been given, their sin shall not remain."
I think it would be his claim that those who who have not heard the preaching of Christ are off the hook. Maybe you should address this issue to him??
Also, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by light. Is this light the Gospel that is preached to me? Or is this light a measure of my intellect? Or is this light an indication of the grace that God has given me? Please explain in more detail...
That is how it is set up. That is reality. Whether or not it is "fair" is irrelevant. It simultaneously satisfies God's holiness and justice as well as his love and mercy.
I think I know Marlowe pretty well. I'd guess he was talking about infants and retarded people.
I pretty sure he believes in Romans 1's statement that the law is in every heart and they all are responsible.
He can correct me if I'm wrong.
God's offer of grace is what brings salvation. If, however, that grace is rejected, then that merciful offer has been rejected. To reject salvation is to choose damnation.
Those who believe in the Son will see life. Those who do not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon them.
"In regard to the latter, each man shall be responsible for the light that he is given. As Jesus noted in John Chapter 9, to those who are truly blind, those to whom no light has been given, their sin shall not remain."
I think it would be his claim that those who who have not heard the preaching of Christ are off the hook. Maybe you should address this issue to him??
One of the problems with P-Marlowe's comment is that what he paraphrased is not what Jesus said in John 9.
Here is what Jesus really said;
John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"[5] 36He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." 38Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him. 39And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." 40Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, "We see.' Therefore your sin remains.
Jesus is drawing the distinction between those who think they "see"(in this case the Pharisees) and those who know they are blind(in this case the healed blind man), and that it's those in their arrogance think they see, when in reality are blind, who's sin remains.
marlowe's paraphrase and misinterpretation was totally backwards from what the text genuinely says.
And you would be wrong. I would say that those who are never offered saving grace are off the hook as they cannot be offered saving grace unless they have the capacity to see it. Jesus stated that to those who are "truly blind" their sin will not remain. That appears to be a grace not contingent upon some action on the part of the recipient. Children and incompetents I believe fall under this grace.
So the elements of saving grace are the fact of a sincere offer of salvation coupled with the capacity to accept it or reject it. How God goes about getting the message to the potential believer is His problem. What the potential believer does with that enlightenment or that grace is the hearer's problem. No matter what the potential believer does with the offer of saving grace, God will be glorified.
Correct. Jesus is the light to the whole world. Eventually that light reaches you no matter where you are hiding. No one with the capacity to "hear" the gospel will get through this life without "hearing" it. All men will be responsible for the grace given to them. In the sense that this grace reaches all men, it is irresistible. It comes on them against their will. But what they do with that grace is their problem. It is irresistible inasmuch as you can't stop God from handing it to you. You can run from it, but you can't hide from it. God's grace will be shed upon all men. It is resistible inasmuch as you have the ability to reject it. You can't save yourself, but you can certainly damn yourself.
Specifically, the "grace" given those who've never heard of Christ is the "law of God/conscience" as stated in Romans.
If they reject it, they will perish. To gain eternal life through it, they must "do" it without violation. They will earn a "righteousness" that is by law.
Abraham, however, "believed God" and that was credited to him as righteousness. He wasn't very successful at keeping that law in his heart.
I didn't think you wanted to play.
Exactly those who because of their age or incapacity have no concept of the "law of God/conscience", are truly blind. If you are capable of coming to the conclusion that "I see" then you are not truly blind. Indeed a truly blind man, a man blind from birth, has no idea of what it means to see. If he is then given even a molecule of light, then he can know what it means to see and he can recognize that he is walking in darkness. He can then choose to remain blind and continue to walk in darkness or he can choose to follow the light.
Jesus is the light to the whole world. That means you. That means me.
So if I have this correct, let me take liberty in making a list:
Saved =
Aborted babies and infants.
Mentally incapacitated individuals.
(not sure if this applies if they were once mentally able)
Those who accept Christ as their Savior.
Eternity in Hell -
Those who comprehend the Gospel, hear it, and reject it.
Those of discerning age, who God convicts but do not hear the Gospel.
Have I missed any categories?
What about baptism? Can you be saved without baptism?
What is an age you would say necessary to comprehend the Gospel - 2,3,16?
One category... Ask about the native on some remote island, a Hindu, or a Muslim who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.
"What is an age you would say necessary to comprehend the Gospel - 2,3,16? "
Better yet, ask when does God starts counting sin as sin - 2,3,16?
Are you just making this up as you go along? I can't believe you said that!
What is your problem with it?
I still have not seen your response to post #350. Have you read this? I will assume I have the list correct since you have not responded.
With that in mind, I wonder if it might not be expedient for me to abort all my children with the confidence that they will spend eternity in heaven? Though this might guarantee me the wrath of God, it would be a small price to pay for the salvation of all my children.
Also, assuming God controls the number of days each man shall live on this earth, he would by default be electing those that he allows to die prior to the age of accountability.
There seem to be many legal loopholes in your recipe for salvation. How do you personally resolve these in your mind??
Post 350 is mine and was not addressed to you.
You seem to be getting contentious in your posts to me. What did I do to upset you so? Why do I owe you a response to my own post?
I am merely stating what I believe scripture to teach. My theology may have some "loopholes" in it, but no man's theology is free of such problems. Certainly not Calvinism.
If you can explain exactly why it is, if God did not see something in you that differentiated you from the reprobates, that God chose you over others for election, then I will do my best to answer your questions. Seems to me that the biggest problem is in reconciling a God of Love with the arbitrary election described in Calvinism. Seems to me the best way to do that is to simply deny that God is love. It also seems to me that that is what many do.
Actually, Vis, xzins is on the record for stating that those who never hear the gospel -as in those, say, who lived in North America 1500 years ago- are saved. They are saved because they never had the opportunity to ~reject~ the gospel.
We used to call it the "Plan B" method of salvation.
He even hinted at this within the past couple of days.
He seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth on this issue.
Jean
Actually, x, Marlowe is on the record as stating that some who die as devout Mormons will be saved.
When pressed further, he brought out the issue of a retarded Mormon.
I have a retarded uncle and cousin who have both made profession of faith in Reformed churches. I would not consider them "devout" Calvinists. They simply do not have the intellect to comprehend those issues. Marlowe knew nows that differnce, but wanted to throw in "retarded" folks to shed a little of the heat he was in for his admission.
Jean
Jean, please do not ping me or post to me.
Thank you
Marlowe
I don't think anything I've written recently is different than anything I've written in the past.
My sense of IF a person would EARN his way into heaven, IF he perfectly kept the law is based on Rom 2:13 and its context. There's no secret there. Besides, it's the accurate interpretation.
If Jean Chauvin lived a perfect life, which he hasn't, WOULD He have earned his way into heaven? Yes.
Call that "plan b" if you wish. The point remains that it IS a way of salvation....just NOT an effective one.
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