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To: gbcdoj; BlackElk
why can't many refer both to the fruits (the elect) and to the sufficiency (for all men) of Christ's sacrifice?

Because the Church has always taught that it does not. They are distinct components of the form of Consecration of the wine. I think it was the Armenians, who rejoined the Church from their schism @ 1331, had to insert "for many" in its liturgy SO IT WOULD BE VALID, before they were permited to re-enter the Church. Confer the Council of Florence.

417 posted on 07/14/2004 7:37:22 PM PDT by Viva Christo Rey
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To: Viva Christo Rey
I think it was the Armenians, who rejoined the Church from their schism @ 1331, had to insert "for many" in its liturgy SO IT WOULD BE VALID, before they were permited to re-enter the Church.

That would mean that the liturgy that St. Ambrose used, which had simply "This is my Blood", was in fact invalid!

"Qui pridie quam pateretur, in sanctis manibus suis accepit panem, respexit in caelum ad te sancte pater omnipotens aeterne deus gratias agens benedixit fregit fractumque apostolis suis et discipulis suis tradidit dicens: Accipite et edite ex hoc omnes; hoc est enim corpus meum, quod pro multis confringetur. Similiter etiam calicem postquam cenatum est, pridie quam pateretur, accepit, respexit in caelum ad te sancte pater omnipotens aeterne deus gratias agens benedixit, apostolis suis et discipulis suis tradidit dicens: Accipite et bibite ex hoc omnes; hic est enim sanguis meus. Et sacerdos dicit: Ergo memores gloriosissimae eius passionis ...." etc. (text in P.L. XVI, cols. 462-464; in Kennedy, op. cit., pp. 18-19, and in Jungmann, op. cit., vol. 1, p. 52).

In fact, "We have in the De sacramentis a text that was certainly in use at Rome at the end of the fourth century" (V. L. Kennedy, The Saints of the Canon of the Mass (Pontificio Istituto di Archaeologia Cristiana: Vatican City, 1938), p. 53.)

As for the Florentine decree, it also said in this decree that:

Its matter is the object by whose handing over the order is conferred. So the priesthood is bestowed by the handing over of a chalice with wine and a paten with bread; the diaconate by the giving of the book of the gospels; the subdiaconate by the handing over of an empty chalice with an empty paten on it; and similarly for the other orders by allotting things connected with their ministry.

But Pius XII says in "Sacramentum Ordinis":

[T]here is no one who does not know that the Roman Church always considered valid the ordinations conferred in the Greek rite, without the handing over of the instruments ... it was not imposed on the Greeks that they change the rite of ordination, or that they insert in it the tradition of the instruments.

424 posted on 07/14/2004 7:56:13 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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