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To: sandyeggo
To clarify: Once Jesus Christ made his sacrifice on the cross, is it not true that each person born thereafter had the opportunity to be saved which some accepted and others rejected by their sins?

If "many" means that some humans would reject Christ and reject the offered redemption, I would tend to agree with that understanding. If shed for "all" means that some are saved and some not because the latter rejected Christ and His sacrifice, I would agree with that. I honestly have much difficulty understanding why some see such a distinction between all and many. The important thing is an understanding in conformity to Christ as to His meaning.

This may still be obscure but I am struggling against the professional obscurantism common to those who have practiced law.

411 posted on 07/14/2004 7:16:08 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk; Viva Christo Rey
If "many" means that some humans would reject Christ and reject the offered redemption, I would tend to agree with that understanding. If shed for "all" means that some are saved and some not because the latter rejected Christ and His sacrifice, I would agree with that.

I for one see no reason why the words can't have both meanings. The Catholic Church confesses the Rock of St. Matthew 16:18 to be both St. Peter and his confession - why can't many refer both to the fruits (the elect) and to the sufficiency (for all men) of Christ's sacrifice?

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (St. Mark 10:45)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. (1 St. Timothy 2:5-6)

415 posted on 07/14/2004 7:29:32 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: BlackElk
I honestly have much difficulty understanding why some see such a distinction between all and many.

The distinction is that they're different. Even a lawyer should be able to see that. No one is asking, "If it were the case that Christ had used the word 'all,' then could there be a way to interpret that in some orthodox manner?" That's not the issue for the simple reason that Christ didn't use the word "all," he used the word, "many." That's what he said, he said "many," he didn't say "all," and the two words are different, they are not the same word, nor do they mean the same thing.

So the words of consecration in the vernacular New Mass are just flat wrong. No question about it. And the words are wrong enough so that they mean something different, which according to Catholic teaching makes the consecration invalid.

If someone wanted to make the argument that "all" and "many" mean the same thing, they first have to overcome the fact that Catechism of the Council of Trent spoke specifically and directly to that very point, and flatly denied that the word "many" can be interpreted to mean "all." It's already defined Catholic doctrine that the word Christ used was "many" and not "all," and that you absolutely cannot interpret it to mean "many."

So a heresy is embedded in the words of consecration of the vernacular New Mass. That is the very sad and unfortunate fact.

418 posted on 07/14/2004 7:43:47 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: BlackElk
I am struggling against the professional obscurantism common to those who have practiced law.

Ummmmhhh, your professionally-learned and -practiced obscurantism is NOTHING compared to that of the schismatics and their adherents.

446 posted on 07/15/2004 10:01:55 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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