Do you believe that "for many" suggests that the sacrifice was unavailable to any post-sacrifice of the cross human at birth? Or does it suggest merely that some would reject salvation by the wrong exercise of free will? Do your pastors have opinions on this question?
Please copy any and all answers to VCR.
FR is wonderful. We have at least two admirably Catholic folks with access to expertise in Aramaic.
Thanks in advance.
Yes, of course. Note that my pastor is bi-ritual, Maronite and Latin Rite. He is also fluent in 6 languages and can read Ancient Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Aramaic. He also has a working knowledge of 3 other languages. It should be interesting to hear his response.
Sandyeggo, is Fr. Nabil at the Maronite Clergy Conference? It ends tomorrow. We expect our pastor to return tomorrow evening.
Have just returned from church. Tonight began a 7 day novena to our patroness, St. Ann. Since the turnout was quite small, Father and I were able to discuss your question after the service.
I began by quoting the words of Consecration from the 3 liturgies ...
1. 1962 Missal
"It will be shed for you and for many to atone for sins."
2. Novus Ordo
"It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven"
3. Maronite Rite (NB - the words of consecration are ALWAYS in Aramaic. All I have to work from is the English translation that appears in the Missalette).
"This is my Blood of the new covenant, which is shed and handed over for you and for many, for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
I asked Father, which is it - "all" or "many". Father picked up the missalette and went directly to the Aramaic. The key word is "sa-gee-yeh". His initial response was 'all'. Then he repeated the Aramaic word and said it means 'multiples - many multiples', at which point he went back to 'many'. He said he would look up the various translations as he feels that 'all' is one of them.
I then showed him your comments.
Black Elk
Once Jesus Christ made His sacrifice on the cross, is it not true that each person born thereafter had the opportunity to be saved which some accepted & others rejected by their sins?
If "many" means that some humans would reject Christ and reject the offered redemption, I would tend to agree with that understanding.
If "all" means that some are saved and some not because the latter rejected Christ and His sacrifice, I would agree with that.
VivaChristoRey
The Council of Trent, the Council of Florence, St. Thomas' Summa are most clear that although our Lord incarnated, suffered and died for the salvation of "all", not all would avail themselves of the fruit of His passion, hence the correct translation is "for you and for many". Anything else is heretical and significantly changes the words, invalidating the sacrament.
Father explained that Christ suffered, died and was resurrected for ALL. He likened the event to rain pouring from the sky. Christ shed His grace on ALL. If someone chooses not to accept this gift, they open an umbrella or erect a tent to protect themselves from the rain (i.e. - from Christ's outpouring of grace). He further explained that God gave us free will and with that we choose what we accept and what we reject. He said both forms - "all" and "many" are correct. Christ died for all but not all will accept. Thus 'many' are saved.
As to VivaChristoRey's 'translation' - "anything else is heretical and significantly changes the words, invalidating the sacrament", he called him a literalist and then pointed out that Christ was NOT a literalist. Substituting 'all' for 'many' does NOT invalidate the sacrament.
Father also believes quite strongly in 'Divine justice', likening it to the way in which some protestants accept some of Christ's words while rejecting others. He then went on to describe a family that asks for God's compassion on their child who has rejected what he has been taught. Father believes that 'justice' will be meted out according to our actions and not our feelings.
Again let me point out Father's background:
38. Born in a suburb of Beirut, Lebanon. Graduated from St. John's Seminary in Boston and received a Master's Degree in Biblical Liturgy from Boston College and a Master's Degree in Theology from The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC. Ordained on Jan. 14, 2001 at the Maronite Cathedral of Saint George in Beirut.
Father is fluent in 6 languages, has a working knowledge of 3 others and reads Ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic.