Posted on 05/28/2004 5:25:59 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
Your second problem after wrongly thinking that taxes were ever yours to begin with, is that you ignore the other commandments. Like "Love the Lord God and Love your neighbor as yourself."
That implies good stewardship of what God has given to you. It implies that you fulfill your duty to be part of the social order and government which God ordained. It implies your duty as part of that government to carry out the duties that God said government should be responsible for.
And when you look at what God said about government and what He told certain Kings and said about rulers, you find that goverment does have many responsibilities and is specifically charged with cause of the poor and needy.
God made us responsible both as individuals and as the government for the poor AND needy. Some try to claim that since God charged us with this individually that government has no role. But that is not the case, as a careful study of scripture indicates. He charged us both as individuals and as government.
Again, I don't deny that there are bureacrats and politicians who waste our resources, that some programs are counter productive to their goals, etc. We should work together to eliminate such abuses while not shirking the responsibilities that have been given to us.
The harm being done to society is not being done by these idiots as you lay it out. For your info God didn't interfere with Eve's decision anymore than He did with Adam's. He told you to shake the dust off your feet if they don't listen. Who is it that is entitled to interfere, pass judgement and sanction?
Here's the nature of the damge being caused.
"how much society would decay without some of those social programs? ...higher crime"
Theft is theft, whether it's done with a gun, or a vote.
"Your first problem is that you think taxes ever belonged to you. They do not. They never did. The Bible treats taxes as the rightful property of the government and you are merely the custodian. It's never yours to begin with.
BS! My efforts and trade were done under mutual agreement. All and everything involved in those transactions belong to us. The govm't never had any part of it. The govm'ts only justification for existance is to protect life and rights. The cash value is ours. It was never the govm'ts and nowhere in the Bible does it say it belonged to some govm't.
"The taxes were set up legitimately by law and voted into law by a legal process which we all signed up for."
No, we were born into the situation and nothing ever justifies theft. Including the power of a majority that votes to take it.
...or am I misreading something?
Yeah Lan, you misread me, my FRiend.
"You cannot take something that was ROTTEN at the core and ever come up with something good." By "you," do you mean, "me"?
- Of course not, Lan. I'm talking in the generic use of the word *you*.
By *you,* I mean *one*, or *we*.
"A cult with half the planet's population -- incidentally -- makes one ahellova an army."
- Actually, it's about 20 to 30 million.
(Based on estimation of of the Muslim Brotherhood, which adheres to 14th century Al Banna/ Wahabi teachings)
- Approximately 2-3 percent of muslims are believers in the violent parts of Muhammeds teachings, to convert infadels to Islam, or to kill them. Conversion by force. Unfortunately, the majority of muslims who don't really follow these teachings? Won't condemn it either.
"Now let's say you & I set out to get real Christians all riled up enough to war against the other half of the world's population, alright?
Might not we use images from American's porn industry to do so, while pointing out precisely what our Bible had to say on the subject?"
Ok, but I can point to where Christians are told by Jesus, to not condemn the sinner.
He stopped a mob of Jews from stoning a prostitute:
"He who is without sin, cast the first stone"
See? He didn't condemn her, He just told her to "Go, and sin no more."
I'm not asking you to believe what I believe here;but there are four differant accounts, by four differant witnesses of Jesus life. (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), and in not one instance will you find him advocating violence against anyone. Not once. In fact, he stopped Peter, when he cut off the ear of a soldier with his knife. He even laid His hands on the soldiers ear, and healed it.
Yes the old Testament is full of documented violence, but you will not see it advocated by Jesus. Not the case with Muhammed or his words.
"Yea-yea, I read & see their deeds here all day long, my friend.
Such a Godly, compassionate bunch.
Witnessed some "devout" Muslims on 9-11, also.
So many Godly humans eveywhere one looks, y'know.
Yes, and Christians as a whole, condemn these deeds. Again, not the case with Islamics. There is hardly a peep, when a terrorist attack occurs.
- Sure, there are hypocrits. But I haven't seen Christians as a majority, or even as a minority, go to church, and as part of their religious duty go out and announce "war on the infidel". Are there exceptions? Sure.
The abortion clinic bombers come to mind.
Koresh's Branch Davidian cult, Jonestown cult. And how many do we have here? A handful, a couple hundred wackos.
-VS. 30 million devout Wahhabi wannabe's who do their act, in the name of Allah, and the majority of muslims don't say a word. In fact, they get rewarded with trips to Mecca.
Jesus condemned violence, Muhammed condoned it.
Christianity uses persuasion to convert, Islam uses coercion.
In fact, the "Prophet" Muhammed killed over 700 people himself. In one raid on a village, he ordered over 2000 women and children beheaded.
Sound familiar?
"Why do you suppose Khomenie called the United States "The Great Satan"?"
-Because *WE* (read the collective U.S.) believe in equality of all people.
We believe all men and women are created equal, and that we are endowed inalieble rights by our *creator*.
Muslims in fact, do not.
The common folk, al-awwam, are regarded as "animals "( al-awwam kal anaam!)
The interpretation of the Divine Law is reserved only for the experts. In Iran there is even a body called The Assembly of Experts.
Political power, like many other domains, including philosophy, is reserved for the " khawas" who, in some Sufi traditions, are even exempt from the ritual rules of the faith.
The "common folk" however, must do as they are told either by the text and tradition or by fatwas issued by the experts.
Khomeini coined the word "mustazafeen" (the feeble ones) to describe the common folk.
Here is the hierarchy of human worth in Islam:
At the summit, are Free male Muslims.
Next come Muslim male slaves
Then come free Muslim women
Next come Muslim slave women.
Then come free Jewish and /or Christian men
Then come slave Jewish and/or Christian men
Then come slave Jewish and/or Christian women.
Non-Muslims are never treated as equals.
(There is even a hierarchy for animals and plants. Seven animals and seven plants will go to heaven, while seven others of each will end up in Hell.)
" Only one ambition is worthy of Islam; the ambition to save the world from the curse of democracy: to teach men that they cannot rule themselves on the basis of manmade laws. - Sheikh Muhammad bin Ibrahim al-Jubair:
So, Lan...Do you see why the Islamo-facsists REALLY hate us?
It's because we contradict their *order* of things...and *that* is a good thing.
This truly is a battle of "Us vs Them."
Source:"The Enemy Is not Just Al Qaeda" - By Robert Spencer
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13454
Source: Amir Taheri: "Islam Is Incompatible With Democracy
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/4462
Victims are innocent; Eve was not a victim; Michelle is not a victim.
A child is tricked and innocent, and a victim, becasue a child does not have the resources to avoid being tricked, and so God does not hold her responsible. A victim, by definition, does not deserve her fate.
But you just said Michelle is like Eve; when you are tricked, but responsible, you are NOT INNOCENT. God treats you differently than He does a child, because He apparently thinks you can be tricked yet still have the resources to avoid the trickery -- like Eve. Therefore, you are not a victim. Eve was not treated as innocent by God, neither are you and I in our sins. We agree.
So, biblically, you can be tricked and still responsible and you can be tricked and not responsible. You are seeing Michelle as a child, when by her own words she started the story leaving her home to pose naked for money. The very earliest thing we know about her is when she was intending to sin. We have no information behind that; I'm sure there was a stage in her life, just like mine and yours, when she was tricked but innocent -- but by the time we get to know her, she is passed that moral stage.
The entire liberal moral error can be summed up by reading this thread. The stubborn error of the liberal moral system is to treat adults like children; tricked, and therefore innocent.
But you and I agree she is NOT INNOCENT. The rest is just comparing our levels of pity for her, which is of little value for her. Of course I feel sorry for her, but that is not what she needs. She needs love.
What she needs is what you and I need: to repent and find God's grace. Which no-one ever does till they realize, though they may have been tricked at one point, they long since embraced their corruption and actively fought God in order to nourish it.
At this point in her life, pity will take Michelle straight to hell.
It is already unsafe.
That doesn't answer the question. Professional boxing is unsafe, yet you'd ban it only if it was shown that it *can't* be done safely. Now, would you care to answer the question?
I agree.
"Well so is oral sex, but you'd have to condemn most of America."
Not always. In the context of marital relations open to children, oral sex is NOT necessarily "disordered and unnatural".
God ordained no govm't whatsoever, people did. They did it by force of arms.
If you love the Freedom the founders and God gave you to enjoy, then you owe it to everyone else to allow them theirs. If you fail to do that you will lose that Freedom to the ones that wish to dominate your will, because those idiots you wanted to control will side with them. See the link in the last post.
" your duty"
My duty is to protect Freedom. It is the only7 condition worth fighting for and is the only condition fighting is justified to achieve. All other fights are for dominace of will and outright theft.
"as a careful study of scripture indicates."
Matt 10:24 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. " There's the command. There is no other that stands above it and says conquer them and place over them a govm't for their own good. That sort of thing is the center of Islam, not Christianity.
Here is your question asked the right way:
And you support keeping it [porn] illegal until it is shown that it can be done safely?
Answer; Yes
Your other question implied it was safe and we needed to prove it unsafe. We already know it is unsafe.
I had a point. You accused me of misunderstanding Jesus and did so to judge me. Judging is much more clearly against Jesus' teaching than boycotting convenience stores.
Now, tell me what is dumb about not shopping at a store which supports a commerce with which I object. Mind you, I didn't say anything about organizing a boycott. I only said I don't shop there.
Shalom.
There is nothing wrong with having secular law, of course, but those who think it actually changes people in the sense that is important to God have yet to comprehend the Gospels.
I agree. And yet, should not legislators work towards a better society in the context of Natural Law?
How's that saying go . . "Allah akbar"? Yeah, that's it. I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on FR.
Having sex with 12 men for $20, for $4000, for $1000000 --- makes no difference the total amount --- sex for money is prostitution. Would she have gone along with this life if the money wasn't waved in front of her face? Maybe --- there are women who do this for free.
Fortunately these people don't lose their ability to choose --- God gives us all free will --- and sent Jesus to show us salvation. He would tell her "go and sin no more".
Yet you'd keep unsafe professional boxing legal until it is shown that it *can't* be done safely. Thanks for finally owning up to your hypocrisy.
There is 'everything wrong' with having secular law that violates individual constitutional rights. The enforcement of prohibitional law harms 'society' far more that the sin it claims to prevent.
But how? An adult has certain choices to make, certain lifestyles they might wish to follow --- do we lock her up? Do police raid your home looking for porn you may or may not have? Does the government watch everything you buy to make sure you aren't contributing to this?
I don't think you can just make laws to save everyone who chooses to follow evil. Religion is supposed to show people the way --- but if they won't go --- if they wish to follow money and pleasure --- they've been warned --- just like all of us. And they still have time to find God if they would allow Him. Jesus didn't save everyone even when he walked on earth --- many chose to disregard him then and some chose to kill him.
You neglected to mention the chimeric War on Terrorism.
Also, all convicted murderers, rapists, pedophiles and draft dodgers would be executed.
I could go on, but lunch is waiting. Simple fare today, grilled cheese sandwich and soup.
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