Homosexuality Avoidable, Doctor Tells Parents

San Francisco Faith: The Bay Areas Lay Catholic Newspaper. ^ | Dr. Joseph Nicolosi

[Jaysun]

I ran across this on the web. It's very interesting and confirms what many of us already believe about homosexual behavior. Jaysun

Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is Executive Director of the National Association tot the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) and Clinical Director of Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic in Encino, California. An expert in "reparative therapy." a treatment for homosexuality, he was interviewed by Lesley Payne.

What do you believe are the factors that contribute to homosexuality?

Nicolosi: To understand the cause of homosexuality, we have to begin by understanding that homosexuality is really a symptom, a rsult, of a gender-identity disorder. In other words, the boy did not sufficiently develop a masculine identification or the girl did not develop a sufficient feminine identification. This seems to hold out for the vast majority or homosexuals. With regard to formation of a masculine identification, in order for the boy to develop a solid sense of his own masculinity, he needs to first establish a bonding or an identification with the father. The father-son relationship is absolutely critical in the boy's sense of his own masculinity. We have to remember that boys and girls are first identified with the mother in their earlier years, but the boy has to dis-identify with his mother and make the bonding identification connection with the father.

We're talking about 2 1/2 years old. This is what they call the gender-identity phase. It's the time when children begin to realize that the world is divided between males and females and that he or she is pressured into identifying with one or the other. If the father is cold, distant, aloof, detached or critical, that doesn't happen properly.

Can parents prevent a child from becoming a homosexual?

The concern I have developed over the whole question of preventing homosexuality in children comes from the years of clinical work with homosexual men who desire to change. So, essentially, I'm working backwards, dealing with adults and understanding the critical events in their childhood that con-tributed to their homosexuality. So. prevention is really guarding against those particular factors that create the homosexual adult.

To begin, I would say that I think home-schooled children have a particular vulnerability for a number of reasons. The primary reason, especially for the boy (and I'll be focusing primarily on boys), is that it isolates him from his peers. I think that's a very important factor in the development of his masculine identification and his heterosexual development. In fact, I'm working right now with a number of parents who are concerned about symptoms what we call pre-homosexual symptoms or gender-identity confusion and a number of these parents are home-schooling these children. The problem that they all complain about is that their son does not have access to boys his age and can-not participate in the kinds of ordinary activ-ities of boys, like sports and sleepovers and just getting together and playing. I think that's a critical factor.

"Freud said 90 years ago that if a homosexual has an older brother, it's a feared, hostile relationship with the older brother."

From my work with adult homosexuals, what we see repeatedly in their childhood is the fact that they were isolated from other boys. They did not have close male friends. That's a very important factor. Parents who home-school will often complain that they have to chauffeur their kid all over town just so he can play with a boy for a couple of hours.

They have to make appointments and drive and it's a lot of work, whereas going to school, there's already a built-in social net-work. . I think that the burden of responsibility, unfortunately, falls on the parents of chil-dren who are home-schooling to provide opportunities tot their children to have peer interactions. That's very important. I'm not saying that home-schooling produces homosexuals. I am saying that parents who home-school have an additional burden of being concerned about these issues.

You have to look at the variables. One of the things we see over and over in the history of homosexual men is the tendency to feel left out of the other boys, to always feel that they were not included, that they were not good enough. This is a fundamental theme in the lives of homosexuals.

What are the signs of the pre-homosexual condition?

One of the signs of the pre-homosexual condition is characterized by a confusion of gender identity, which is to say the boy will exhibit certain behaviors like what we call the "sissy-boy syndrome," which is UCLA psychology researcher Richard Green's term--he wrote a book by that name. Basically--and other researchers have supported this--this is a boy who shies away from physical activity, tends to stay with girls. tends to stay close to his mother, grandmother or sisters. When he's very young he will actually say he doesn't want to be a boy and that he wants to be a girl. They will sometimes engage in dress-up or playing with makeup. Now, we have to warn parents that a certain amount of this is kind of normal curiosity. So we don't have to panic as soon as we see the slightest sign. But we have to look at an over-all picture of a boy who systematically either ignores, denies or minimizes his masculinity.

Typically, these boys stay home more. they stay in the kitchen more, they like theater, acting and music, they're into fantasy--fantasy is a very big part of their life, and they tend to identify with female characters on television. Like, usually in the Disney productions, they tend to identify with Sleeping Beauty or the mermaid or whatever the feminine character is....

If people were to ask me what is the one characteristic that identifies the pre-homosexual boy, I would say it's a boy who is not connected to his father, who avoids his father, who minimizes his father, who does not really go out and seek out his father's attention.

My experience with home-schoolers is that the fathers are more involved with their kids than typical families and the fathers are what I would consider more masculine, where they are clearly the head of the family and they go to Catholic men 's meetings, etc.

Let me say this generally speaking, more conservative and orthodox people--not only Catholics, but any religion politically, religiously and socially conservative people--tend to be more clear about gender difference. This is to say, the men are the men and the women are the women. Whereas, the more politically/socially/religiously liberal people tend to blur gender distinctions.

Furthermore, the decision to home-school, which is a major decision, is usually made by parents who are more concerned. Home-schooling is such an unpopular decision that, for the decision to be made, it usually means that the mother and father are very committed to the children. Already, that tells me that this is going to be a father who is more involved in his children's lives.

In a large family is there a different dynamic? In some home-schooling families I know there are five boys or nine boys.

When we're talking about the important variables [which] determine a boy's masculine identification, one of the important factors is a relationship with his older brother. If he has a loving, supportive, encouraging, positive relationship with his older brother, that's a very good sign. Whereas, if it's a feared, hostile relationship with the older brother, then that is not a good sign. If the younger boy shies away from his older brothers or feels intimidated by them or is constantly being beaten up by his older brothers, that's also another important variable. Freud said 90 years ago that if a homosexual has an older brother, it's a feared, hostile relationship with the older brother, and I have seen this to be true time and time again.

Many people have a family member or neighbor who is homosexual. What do you tell the kids about that? I don't want my kids to be un-Christian, but I don't want them to think it's normal.

Basically, we should educate our children to see that the homosexual is a person with a problem. We have to respect this person. We don't want to contribute to their unhappiness by rejecting them or making them feel bad about themselves. We have to always be Christian and tolerant of the person. But while we are loving to the person, it does not mean we have to accept or approve of their homosexuality. Tell the kids that homosexuality is really a psychological problem and that many of them, if they really work hard at it, can overcome their homosexuality, get married and have families. This is basically what we want to teach our kids.

What treatment do you recommend for a "pre-homosexual" condition?

Number one, what you do is you let the child know very specifically that effeminate behavior is unacceptable. That seems very obvious, but you would be surprised how many parents don't like their sons sissy behavior but do not comment on it, because they're either intimidated or they're fearful, or they don't want to hurt the boy's feelings, or they hope it's just a phase that will go away. The child interprets their silence as approval. This is one of the big discoveries that Richard Green found, that parents will not correct an effeminate boy.

Anyway, the first thing you do is you discourage effeminate behavior. The second thing is you get the mother to perhaps back off, to not be so emotionally tied to the boy. The father has to get much more involved. Any male in the boy's life has to become involved. All significant males in this boy's life have to work together to support and encourage and reinforce his masculine identification. The message has to be: "You're lucky to be a boy. Being a boy is fun. Being a boy is special." You really have to play that up. You have to really make him feel special to be a boy. It may be sexist, but that's what we need to do....

One of the things I find is that when these mothers call me up--and it's usually the mothers who call--they have an intuitive sense that there's something wrong. That's a good starting point. When parents call me because they are concerned, the first thing I do is an evaluation to determine whether the parents' fears are well-founded. If so, then I basically work with the parents. I really don't work with the child. I coach the parents in doing the right thing. If they're motivated, they can turn this around. If the parents are willing to work together as a team, they can produce very good results. And the younger the child, the faster the change. I once worked with the parents of a 3 1/2 year old boy who wanted to be a girl. We were able to bring about a radical change that everybody noticed-- uncles and aunts and everybody--in about three weeks.

[netmilsmom]

These are direct quotes from this article..(you know the one the Newbie says I didn't read)

>>To begin, I would say that I think home-schooled children have a particular vulnerability for a number of reasons. The primary reason, especially for the boy (and I'll be focusing primarily on boys), is that it isolates him from his peers. I think that's a very important factor in the development of his masculine identification and his heterosexual development. <<

Then he states an untruth about homeschoolers, socialization..
>>They have to make appointments and drive and it's a lot of work, whereas going to school, there's already a built-in social net-work. . I think that the burden of responsibility, unfortunately, falls on the parents of chil-dren who are home-schooling to provide opportunities tot their children to have peer interactions. That's very important. I'm not saying that home-schooling produces homosexuals. I am saying that parents who home-school have an additional burden of being concerned about these issues.

Then he flipflops...
>>My experience with home-schoolers is that the fathers are more involved with their kids than typical families and the fathers are what I would consider more masculine, where they are clearly the head of the family and they go to Catholic men 's meetings, etc.

Let me say this generally speaking, more conservative and orthodox people--not only Catholics, but any religion politically, religiously and socially conservative people--tend to be more clear about gender difference. This is to say, the men are the men and the women are the women. Whereas, the more politically/socially/religiously liberal people tend to blur gender distinctions.

Furthermore, the decision to home-school, which is a major decision, is usually made by parents who are more concerned. Home-schooling is such an unpopular decision that, for the decision to be made, it usually means that the mother and father are very committed to the children. Already, that tells me that this is going to be a father who is more involved in his children's lives. <<

So please do not tell me, Marie or anyone else that we did not read. That is rude, thank you



Then he flops....

[netmilsmom]

>>this is a boy who shies away from physical activity, tends to stay with girls. tends to stay close to his mother, grandmother or sisters. When he's very young he will actually say he doesn't want to be a boy and that he wants to be a girl. They will sometimes engage in dress-up or playing with makeup. Now, we have to warn parents that a certain amount of this is kind of normal curiosity. So we don't have to panic as soon as we see the slightest sign. But we have to look at an over-all picture of a boy who systematically either ignores, denies or minimizes his masculinity.

Typically, these boys stay home more. they stay in the kitchen more, they like theater, acting and music, they're into fantasy--fantasy is a very big part of their life, and they tend to identify with female characters on television. Like, usually in the Disney productions, they tend to identify with Sleeping Beauty or the mermaid or whatever the feminine character is....

If people were to ask me what is the one characteristic that identifies the pre-homosexual boy, I would say it's a boy who is not connected to his father, who avoids his father, who minimizes his father, who does not really go out and seek out his father's attention. <<

>>The second thing is you get the mother to perhaps back off, to not be so emotionally tied to the boy. <<

I'm not going to reprint the entire article for you. I have to put my own homeschooled kids to bed. I would suggest that you read the article and especially note the homeschool references. Count them and see who he is talking to.
Maybe it was just badly written and I see that you are a Newbie but it is not polite to accuse someone of not reading the article. Just a helpful FReeper tip.

[Quix]

AMEN!

THANKS.

[nmh]

Me: Lack of sexual identity and abuse or molestation is what causes homosexuality.


You: That sweeping generality doesn't statistically stand up. Too many non-abused homosexuals. And too many abused heterosexuals.

Me:That "sweeping generalization just happens to be TRUE! Care to give me some "stats" that defy that truth? Isn't it true that you don't have any "stats" and you simply don't like the truth.

[Old Professer]

I respectfully submit that all the learned reports and all the anecdotal material on the causes and status of homosexuality are wrong, and they are wrong for a very simple reason - one too often overlooked by people too obsessed with the social implications of such a pebble in the mainstream of society, namely that being gay or lesbian, bisexual or transgendered is nothing more than a fad of our modern time.

One cannot be quantifiabily queer in a sexual sense absent a clinical definition; just because some animals mount from behind others of their species of the same biological sex does not by itself mean anything more than a boor scratching an itch in the royal palace whilst the Queen attempts to hold court.

I will be all for granting whatever rights are demanded when a test has been established for the supplicant group is designed that, when passed, certifies their gayness.

Otherwise, I may as well leave this keyboard right now and proclaim myself the supreme ruler of Mars or some other distant planet.

[TheWriterInTexas]

Dear Netmilsmom:

I don't think that the author was asserting that homeschooling can lead to homosexuality, but is urging parents to ensure appropriate "play" time amongst peers. Boys have a distinct effect on each other; while they may start out playing gently, invariably, they will start crashing cars, dinosaurs will crush pretend villages and devour the villagers, and all sorts of "imaginary" mayhem will occur.

Boys need to be rowdy, just a little bit, everyday. They need a few cuts and bruises from spills and daring adventures. I've seen too many moms, in their loving efforts to protect their sons from perceived danger, verbally emasculate them.

Further, the author does qualify his support for homeschooling by pointing out that homeschooling parents tend to be more involved, more supportive, and provide more traditional gender roles than "modern" parents. I think he was just giving homeschoolers a "heads up," nothing more.

As to your comments concerning the current state of many households, I wholeheartedly agree. There are way too many children being raised in homes with just one parent. I know far too many children who have no father, absent fathers, or useless, uninvolved fathers. A shame.

As an aside, my husband can't understand why I sometimes let my son "sass" me back or pitch a fit. It's simple. My boy is a stubborn, willful child - has been since he was born. If I constantly suppress that strong spirit of his, I will break him or he will grow up hating me. I don't want him broken. I want him to love me, fear me at times, and understand that there is a BIG difference between right and wrong. I certainly don't want to be his "friend," like too many other parents do - that conveys an equal status and we are most certainly not equal. But I want him to feel comfortable enough in our relationship to bring his problems to me, which is why - at times - I don't always pounce on things, particularly minor things. I want him to know there are times when I can see his side, too.

Being a parent is the toughest job in the world. I can only hope I'm doing half the job raising my babies as my parents did raising me. Thankfully, my husband is unmistakably masculine - in his looks, body type, conduct, and manners. He is very close to my son, and I am struck anew, daily, at how my son emulates him - even down to his swaggering walk. I'll have to show this article to my husband, to remind him how important he is in our son's development.

[TheWriterInTexas]

I got it.

Check out my reply later on this thread.

[BykrBayb]

You copied and pasted real well.

>>To begin, I would say that I think home-schooled children have a particular vulnerability for a number of reasons. The primary reason, especially for the boy (and I'll be focusing primarily on boys), is that it isolates him from his peers. I think that's a very important factor in the development of his masculine identification and his heterosexual development. <<

He's saying that there is not a whole classroom full of children. During this time, the child is not interacting with people his own age. Peer interaction is an important factor in the boy developing his masculine identity like other boys, as opposed to the feminine identity like the girls. That peer interaction is not built into the environment of home-schooling. Dr. Nicolosi has thus identified the vulnerability. He later discusses the solution.

>>They have to make appointments and drive and it's a lot of work, whereas going to school, there's already a built-in social net-work. . I think that the burden of responsibility, unfortunately, falls on the parents of chil-dren who are home-schooling to provide opportunities tot their children to have peer interactions. That's very important. I'm not saying that home-schooling produces homosexuals. I am saying that parents who home-school have an additional burden of being concerned about these issues. <<

I can't imagine what you find untrue about that. Peers don't magically appear. The parents must make arrangements of some sort, or there will be limited or no peer interaction. It is the parents' responsibility to make sure the child has an opportunity to interact with other kids. In a home school environment, this doesn't just automatically happen like it does in a public school environment. Even without extra curricular activies like sports, there is still plenty of peer interaction in public school. It just happens. It doesn't have to be planned. In home schooling, there is some effort required on the parents' part to ensure peer interaction. Extra curricular activities at a public school tend to be controlled, at least to some extent, by the school. Often they provide transportation. When you home school your kids you have to seek out programs for after school activities, and provide the transportation. There is generally more effort involved in this than if the child attends public school, and this is more necessary for the home-schooled child than it is for the child who has peer interaction in public school.

>>My experience with home-schoolers is that the fathers are more involved with their kids than typical families and the fathers are what I would consider more masculine, where they are clearly the head of the family and they go to Catholic men 's meetings, etc.

Let me say this generally speaking, more conservative and orthodox people--not only Catholics, but any religion politically, religiously and socially conservative people--tend to be more clear about gender difference. This is to say, the men are the men and the women are the women. Whereas, the more politically/socially/religiously liberal people tend to blur gender distinctions.

Furthermore, the decision to home-school, which is a major decision, is usually made by parents who are more concerned. Home-schooling is such an unpopular decision that, for the decision to be made, it usually means that the mother and father are very committed to the children. Already, that tells me that this is going to be a father who is more involved in his children's lives. <<

That's not a flip flop. At no time did he suggest otherwise. He has been discussing various factors that may influence a boy's gender identity. Now he's discussing how the father-son relationship is a factor, and that it's an issue that home-schooling families tend to be well equipped to deal with, without changing any of their established routines or patterns of behavior. As a matter of fact, this is an area in which home-schooling families tend to excel. He says that conservative families tend to make a clear distinction between what is male and what is female, and liberal families tend to blur those distintions. Remember, the whole basis of his theory is that clear distinctions must be drawn between male and female, or the child will develop gender identity problems, which may lead to homosexuality. He says that parents generally don't take the decision to home school their children lightly, and therefor tend to be more concerned parents, who will be more involved with their children.

He works with parents who home-school their kids, so naturally he will use that as a point of reference. The differences between public-schooling and home-schooling lend themselves well to comparison, for the purpose of establishing his theory. Two major components of his theory are the relationship among peers, and the relationship between father and son. There is a clear difference in these relationships between a public school environment and a home school enviornment. His statements tend to imply that a home school environment allows for a greater opportunity to prevent a child from growing up to be homosexual than does a public school environment, though it doesn't happen magically. It is the parents' responsibility provide for the needs of the child.

[Dasaji]

I think because he has many homeschooling parents as clients with concerns, he is basing his references in that context and not necessarily making any kind of leap that homeschooling may equal homosexuality.

There are a ton of homeschooling families around our community. . .cant say Ive seen an abundance of effeminate behavior, although I *have* seen some. OTOH, I see about the same amount in the public schooling arena, as well. A couple I know push their one son into as many sports as they possibly can because they think he is too sensitive. I think that is wrong and may end up having the opposite effect of their desired outcome. Ill also mention that as a baby and still today, dad is out of town an awful lot - when this little boy was a baby, his mother glombed onto him almost as a replacement for her frequently MIA husband. . .visited one day and she had painted this kids fingernails. (And they wonder why he might be a little bit girly and would rather play music or color instead of hockey?)

[TheWriterInTexas]

Dear Netmilsmom:

Sorry, I posted before reading the entire thread. Unfortunately, as a Mom (like you) I get pressed for time and sometimes don't look before I leap.

I had a chance to read the entire thread and saw your later comments. I can see why you came away from this article with a different impression, and can definitely see why you arrived at your conclusions. I am not homeschooling yet, but I'm sure, as a homeschooling parent, you would view this article through a much different perspective. From my initial reading, as posted above, I came away with a less critical interpretation.

God bless you and your family! Keep up the good work. I am convinced that homeschooled children will be the John Galts of the future.

[Jeff Gordon]

I disagree.

No problem.

Are you Catholic?

[The Westerner]

Capitan,
Do you remember where you read these studies? I'd like to verify the results myself. This article provides some excellent practical guidance to parents of young children. Some of the things I learned: try to get mom to detach a little bit from her boy, have strong male figures in his life who communicate the idea that being a man is terrific, if you homeschool--drive those extra miles to make sure your boy plays with other boys frequently, discourage effeminate behavior in the young boy, etc.
T.W.

[woofie]

He does so mention lesbians. In the first 3 sentences he talks about homosexuals, both male and female. Then he alternates between discussing male and female homosexuals. He says that he's going to talk primarily about males, and he does. You win the prize for reading the least. You didn't even read his first two sentences. Why would you bother putting up a post about an article that hadn't read at all?

Is it that time of month?

A response from someone who agreed with me:

Posted by Jaysun to woofie

On News/Activism 02/26/2004 5:37:15 PM PST #45 of 71

It doesnt mention Lesbians....

You're right. It focuses on the gay male issue. Are girls that lack female influences more likely to become lesbian? I don't know. It stands to reason. Think about "tom boys." Many lesbians have been victims of sexual abuse(Melissa Ethridge was molested by her sister).

[BykrBayb]

Am I supposed to agree with you because Jaysun agreed with you? The article really does mention lesbians, but I can see where if you were searching for the word lesbian you wouldn't find it. Not to worry, I've added it to the keywords.

[537 Votes]

I thought this was an excellent article talking about factors in a kid's life. The author repeatedly stressed that he wasn't condemning homeschooling, he was simply pointing out problems that had to be addressed. He even gave solutions to those problems. He's actually trying to help homeschooling parents, and instead of being thankful, you're bashing him.

One of the things that's special about being a boy is that you don't have to take everything as personal criticism.

[woofie]

My point was that the guy states gender identification is the primary cause of homosexuality yet he doesnt discuss how this happens with females. If all children initially identify with the mother is there a point at which girls reject their mothers and identify with the male? I think it entirely different than the examples he cites ....and yes I did read it

[BykrBayb]

Well isn't that special?
One of the things that's special about being a girl is that if I assert myself I get accused of being on the rag.
Wanna trade?
Aw, I didn't think so.

[BykrBayb]

Gee, I dunno. Maybe Dr. Nicolosi doesn't know either.

[woofie]

The lesbians I have known seem more casual about their sexualty ....maybe more bisexual ....My wife has a friend who during her college days was a angry gay feminist. This woman is now married to a Doctor in suburbia with 5 kids.

[Styria]

I'm not strongly masculine and it doesn't bother me. I don't recall having much identification with my father when I was little, or older for that matter. I'm into fantasy, but it's internal. I tend to identify with female characters and even have some in an online roleplaying game.

It's an interesting article, but I'm not homosexual and am not at risk for it either.