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To: lockeliberty; Alamo-Girl; Ephesians210; unspun; marron; logos
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self,...holding the form of religon but denying the power of it....

Exactly, lockeliberty. The power of Christ is not the religious "form," it is to live in Love. Men are called, not preeminently to believe in a doctrine; we are called preeminently to live in Love -- to love God with all our heart and mind and soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourself. It seems to me the very definition of a "lover of self" is one who refuses to live in these two divine Laws.

925 posted on 02/17/2004 8:19:19 AM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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To: betty boop
Men are called, not preeminently to believe in a doctrine; we are called preeminently to live in Love -- to love God with all our heart and mind and soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourself.

How does man love God? He loves God by believing in his revealed truth. We must worship him in spirit and in truth. What you have done, and what liberal Christianity has done, is reverse the two commandments. You have made the love for neighbor greater than the love for God. The love for nieghbor is an outworking for the love of God and his truth. If we "love" our neighbor by refusing to point out to them that their unbelief is hatred toward God are we really loving our neighbor?

926 posted on 02/17/2004 8:32:41 AM PST by lockeliberty (Heilsgeschichte)
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To: betty boop
Re:It seems to me the very definition of a "lover of self" is one who refuses to live in these two divine Laws.

How can you love God when you fail to heed to full counsel of His Word?

929 posted on 02/17/2004 8:40:29 AM PST by Ephesians210
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To: betty boop
The power of Christ is not the religious "form," it is to live in Love. Men are called, not preeminently to believe in a doctrine; we are called preeminently to live in Love -- to love God with all our heart and mind and soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourself. It seems to me the very definition of a "lover of self" is one who refuses to live in these two divine Laws.

I understand exactly what you are saying. There is a huge difference, a subtle one really, but huge as it works itself out, when someone operates from love. I'm not sure I'm a good example, but I recognize these people when I encounter them. To operate from love is not to deny scripture, it is completely another thing.

I think we have kicked this one around before. The scriptures are not some kind of taxidermy performed on a frozen god, God is in motion even now, moving among us, at work on all sides. There are people who operate from an awareness of the living God, and who simply love him. And find themselves drawn toward him inexorably.

When you meet people like this you can't help but note the difference.

It seems a little unfair to keep pounding on the poor Pharisees, they've certainly taken enough abuse over the centuries, but its useful to remember that these were not bad people, they were the most moral, and most scripturally knowledgeable men of the day. And they annoyed Jesus to no end. He would rather spend time with someone who lacked scriptural understanding but who operated from love as he himself did.

This of course does not meant that scripture is unimportant, it is very important, it provides a framework and a means of understanding what we observe if our eyes are open. It provides a means of knowing even what to look for, almost like a lens that lets you see things you might well otherwise have missed. I can't help but be suspicious of the motives of people who play fast and loose with scripture. But the point of it all is to get you to the elephant. Once you get hold, don't let go, even if the guy next to you argues with you... listen to him, read all you can from your elephant manual, but don't turn loose of the elephant.

936 posted on 02/17/2004 10:22:06 AM PST by marron
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To: betty boop
I'm curious as to how the following passages fit into your own idea of "love"?

Proverbs 24
24He who says to the wicked, "You are righteous,"
Him the people will curse;
Nations will abhor him.
25But those who rebuke the wicked will have
delight, And a good blessing will come upon them.

Proverbs 27
5Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed.

Proverbs 29:15;
The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[1] His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

Titus 1
12One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Titus 2
14who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Are those passages to be taken seriously?

938 posted on 02/17/2004 10:40:42 AM PST by Ephesians210
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To: betty boop
We are called to keep the commandments.

John 14:18-24

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
944 posted on 02/17/2004 11:13:45 AM PST by snerkel (1 Peter 4:14 "...on their part He is evil spoken of, but on your part He is glorified.")
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