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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands
I have just determined that your definition of spiritual death is inadequate.

Jesus CAN and DOES enlighten them.

One cannot overlay physical death on spiritual death and draw any parallels.

Within the "spiritually dead" person is an image of God, a conscience implanted by God, an enlightenment engineered by Jesus, and moments of conviction brought by the Holy Spirit and that especially when exposed to the word of God.

Your spiritual death is not properly understood by referral to human physical death.
120 posted on 02/10/2004 9:49:30 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!!)
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To: xzins
I have just determined that your definition of spiritual death is inadequate. Jesus CAN and DOES enlighten them. One cannot overlay physical death on spiritual death and draw any parallels. Within the "spiritually dead" person is an image of God, a conscience implanted by God, an enlightenment engineered by Jesus, and moments of conviction brought by the Holy Spirit and that especially when exposed to the word of God. Your spiritual death is not properly understood by referral to human physical death.

My definition of Spiritual Death does not refer to human physical death.

My definition of Spiritual Death is simply that definition given by the Bible:

This is simply the Biblical definition of the term, "Spiritual Death". And so...

Any claim that a Spiritually Dead Man ever will Believe on Jesus and Repent unto Him, simply denies the express teaching of Romans and propagates the Lie of Eden: "Ye shall not surely die".

121 posted on 02/10/2004 9:52:54 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Corin Stormhands; Vernon
One cannot overlay physical death on spiritual death and draw any parallels.

Right on!

Death is separation. Being dead in sins means we are spiritually separated from God. We are spiritually dead until that point that we can stand holy before God. That does not happen at the point of enlightenment, but only at the point of justification.

OP tries to equate both Physical Death and Spiritual death with being "dead as a doornail." Its a bad analogy. Its also bad theology. We are conscious of our faults and we are conscious of our need for repentance even before we are born again by the Spirit. People recognize their reprobate state, but they refuse to believe. But if they were dead as OP suggests, they could not even think about spiritual things. Indeed they could not even think.

Romans Chapter one clearly states that people know God, but they refuse to worship him as God. If they are spiritually dead as OP describes spiritual death, then they could not know God. As he always says, the dead cannot know anything. But Romans Chapter 1 refutes that notion. They know God. They knowingly reject God. Hence, they are without excuse.

128 posted on 02/10/2004 10:15:11 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o* &AAGG)
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To: xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian; P-Marlowe
Thank you oh so very much for your reply, xzins! Indeed, "Our God is an Awesome God."!

I’ve been trying to follow your conversation with OrthodoxPresbyterian and I frankly don’t understand the dispute. I don’t see how one can read “spiritual death” as it has been described into Romans 8:5-8, i.e. that a person living after the flesh can never repent. I’ve excerpted the context below, verses 1-13. The 5-8 part is in italics. The part which makes it not sound hopeless is in underline:

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:1-13

When I think of those who are beyond hope, I think of those who will experience the “second death”:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: - Matthew 25:41

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:12-15

Even so, the people who have their “part in the lake of fire” (liars, etc.) also seem to make another appearance outside the New Jerusalem. I haven’t meditated on this except to note the passages:

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. - Revelation 21:6-8

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. - Revelation 21:27

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. - Revelation 22:14-15


135 posted on 02/10/2004 10:34:35 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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