On the Freedom of the Will: Part II: Section I (Refuting Arminian Free-Willism)

Section I: Showing the manifest inconsistence of the Arminian notion of Liberty of Will, consisting in the Will's self-determining Power.

Having taken notice of those things which may be necessary to be observed, concerning the meaning of the principal terms and phrases made use of in controversies concerning human liberty, and particularly observed what Liberty is according to the common language and general apprehension of mankind, and what it is as understood and maintained by Arminians; I proceed to consider the Arminian notion of the Freedom. of the Will, and the supposed necessity of it in order to moral agency, or in order to any one's being capable of virtue or vice, and properly the subject of command or counsel, praise or blame, promises or threatenings, rewards or punishments; or whether that which has been described, as the thing meant by Liberty in common speech, be not sufficient, and the only Liberty, which make, or can make any one a moral agent, and so properly the subject of these things. In this Part, I shall consider whether any such thing be possible or conceivable, as that Freedom of Will which Arminians insist on; and shall inquire, whether any such sort of Liberty be necessary to moral agency, &c. in the next part. And first of all, I shall consider the notion of a self-determining Power in the Will: wherein, according to the Arminians, does most essentially consist the Will's freedom; and shall particularly inquire, whether it be not plainly absurd, and a manifest inconsistence, to suppose that the Will itself determines all the free acts of the will.

Here I shall not insist on the great impropriety of such ways of speaking as the Will determining itself; because actions are to be ascribed to agents, and not properly to the powers of agents; which improper way of speaking leads to many mistakes, and much confusion, as Mr. Locke observes. But I shall suppose that the Arminians, when they speak of the Will's determining itself, do by the Will mean the soul willing. I shall take it for granted, that when they speak of the will, as the determiner, they mean the soul in the exercise of a power of willing, or acting voluntarily. I shall suppose this to be their meaning, because nothing else can be meant, without the grossest and plainest absurdity. In all cases when we speak of the powers or principles of acting, or doing such things we mean that the agents which have these Powers of acting, do them, in the exercise of those Powers. So where we say, valor fights courageously, we mean, the man who is under the influence of valor fights courageously. Where we say, love seeks the object loved, we mean, the person loving seeks that object. When we say, the understanding discerns, we mean the soul in the exercise of that faculty So when it is said, the will decides or determines, this meaning must be, that the person, in the exercise of: Power of willing and choosing, or the soul, acting voluntarily, determines.

Therefore, if the Will determines all its own free acts the soul determines them in the exercise of a Power of willing and choosing; or, which is the same thing, it determines them of choice; it determines its own acts, by choosing its own acts. If the Will determines the Will then choice orders and determines the choice; and acts c choice are subject to the decision, and follow the conduct of other acts of choice. And therefore if the Will deter mines all its own free acts, then every free act of choice is determined by a preceding act of choice, choosing that act. And if that preceding act of the will be also a free act. then by these principles, in this act too, the will is self-determined: that is, this, in like manner, is an act that the soul voluntarily chooses; or, which is the same thing, it is an act determined still by a preceding act of the will, choosing that. Which brings us directly to a contradiction: for it supposes an act of the Will preceding the first act in the whole train, dieting and determining the rest; or a free act of the Will, before the first free act of the Will. Or else we must come at last to an act of the will, determining the consequent acts, wherein the Will is not self-determined, and so is not a free act, in this notion of freedom: but if the first act in the train, determining and fixing the rest, be not free, none of them all can be free; as is manifest at first view, but shall be demonstrated presently.

If the Will, which we find governs the members of the body, and determines their motions, does also govern itself, and determines its own actions, it doubtless determines them the same way, even by antecedent volitions. The Will determines which way the hands and feet shall move, by an act of choice: and there is no other way of the Will's determining, directing, or commanding any thing at all. Whatsoever the will commands, it commands by an act of the Will. And if it has itself under its command, and determines itself in its own actions, it doubtless does it the same way that it determines other things which are under its command. So that if the freedom of the will consists in this, that it has itself and its own actions under its command and direction, and its own volitions are determined by itself, it will follow, that every free volition arises from another antecedent volition, directing and commanding that: and if that directing volition be also free, in that also the will is determined; that is to say, that directing volition is determined by another going before that; and so on, till we come to the first volition in the whole series: and if that first volition be free, and the will self-determined in it, then that is determined by another volition preceding that. Which is a contradiction; because by the supposition, it can have none before it, to direct or determine it, being the first in the train. But if that first volition is not determined by any preceding act of the Will, then that act is not determined by the Will, and so is not free in the Arminian notion of freedom, which consists in the Will's self-determination. And if that first act of the will which determines and fixes the subsequent acts, be not free, none of the following acts which are determined by it can be free.-- If we suppose there are five acts in the train, the fifth and last determined by the fourth, and the fourth by the third, the third by the second, and the second by the first; if the first is not determined by the Will, and so not free, then none of them are truly determined by the Will: that is, that each of them are as they are, and not otherwise, is not first owing to the will, but to the determination of the erst in the series, which is not dependent on the will, and is that which the will has no hand in determining. And this being that which decides what the rest shall be, and determines their existence; therefore the first determination of their existence is not from the Will. The case is just the same, if instead of a chain of five acts of the Will, we should suppose a succession of ten, or an hundred, or ten thousand. If the first act he not free, being determined by something out of the will, and this determines the next to be agreeable to itself, and that the next, and so on; none of them are free, but all originally depend on, and are determined by, some cause out of the Will; and so all freedom in the case is excluded, and no act of the will can be free, according to this notion of freedom. If we should suppose a long chain of ten thousand links, so connected, that if the first link moves, it will move the next, and that the next; and so the whole chain must be determined to motion, and in the direction of its motion, by the motion of the first link; and that is moved by something else; in this case, though all the links, but one, are moved by other parts of the same chain, yet it appears that the motion of no one, nor the direction of its motion, is from any self-moving or self-determining power in the chain, any more than if every link were immediately moved by something that did not belong to the chain.-- If the Will be not free in the first act, which causes the next, then neither is it free in the next, which is caused by that first act; for though indeed the Will caused it, yet it did not cause it freely; because the preceding act, by which it was caused, was not free. And again, if the Will be not free in the second act, so neither can it be in the third, which is caused by that; because in like manner, that third was determined by an act of the Will that was not free. And so we may go on to the next act, and from that to the next; and how long soever the succession of acts is, it is all one: if the first on which the whole chain depends, and which determines all the rest, be not a free act, the Will is not free in causing or determining any one of those acts; because the act by which it determines them all is not a free act; and therefore the Will is no more free in determining them, than if it did not cause them at all.-- Thus, this Arminian notion of Liberty of the Will, consisting in the will's Self-determination, is repugnant to itself, and shuts itself wholly out of the world.

...they are following a false jesus and a false gospel, who is not the same as the Jesus of the Bible and historic Christian faith....

To answer your earlier question, Ephesians210: No, I am not LDS. (If I have to "label " myself, consider me RC.)

You seem to suggest that, by God's saying "by their fruits shall ye know them," by these words alone, God instantly endues human beings with powers of infallible discernment. Fat chance, kiddo.

I am not a student of LDS scripture and can't say I'm intimately familiar with its theology. But if we want to use that "by their fruits" criterion, WRT to LDS, here is what I personally observe: Strong, loving families and communities; law abiding citizens who love their country; and -- the piece de resistance -- strong, loving, beautiful children, who are raised to the standards of such virtues as personal responsibility, self-restraint, hard work, respect for parents and elders, prudence, temperance, generosity towards others.

On that basis, the tree looks to be pretty sound to me.

In fact, the fruits do tell you the soundness of the tree. Perhaps we can apply this maxim to non-LDS families as well, just judging by the children they produce.

Please forgive me, but I must decline further doctrinal dispute. I just don't see what purpose it serves at all.

God bless you and yours in all things!

Most people at FreeRepublic have not been taught the whole counsel of God, and have developed "specialties" (Holes) in what they have studied. However, if they love the Lord and claim Jesus as their Savior, it becomes the mature Christian's responsibility to take them under their wing and instruct them in the whole counsel of God.

Amen. There are many Christians that think that it is just too complicated or too hard or out of the reach of the average person. Unfortunately many Pastors do not think their congregation needs it or can not understand it..so they feed Pablum on Sundays and do nothing to see there is any meat during the week. That leads people to think it is not important, that is why the resistance when you try to cut it up and feed it.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

As we know, salvation as treated in the Word is about a relationship with God in Christ (i.e., whether that relationship exists or not on His terms, in His view, a thoroughly authoritative and sufficent yet general and limited depiction of His view for each of us being conveyed to us in His Scriptures, no part of which contradicts His actual, consistent view for each of us).

Here's what I'm thinking.

I believe we'll find many in Heaven who have grasped what is necessary of the saving doctrine of Christ, despite what they were taught in "church," in order to let the True Seed of Jesus the Word grow their utterly critical relationship with God. I suspect these will include people presently resting their feet in churches low and high, and in all valences between utter congruence and utter apostacy.

We judge all things yet we are judged by no one but Christ. That being the case, we judge no one, though we may need to determine how we must treat and even regard them by the fruit of their words and deeds.

Personally, I've felt compelled at one time, to step into a matter of testimony of a "prophet" behaving very falsely. (Frankly, this leader and group began to act much like 19th Century Mormons, in my view.) People involved had to make judgments about this. But even if there were a means to cast this person out of church fellowship, this would be as Paul said in 1 Cor. 5, in order to apply our hope for his salvation.

In fear and trembling,
Arlen

Betty , I do not mean to be rude, but there are alot of very nice atheists , and followers of witchcraft or Buddhists and so on .

There are many folks that will be thrown into the fire that neighbors thought were so wonderful.

That is because the fruit is only as good as the vine it is attached to.

The bible tells us what is not of faith is sin. That means that the "good" things men do is sin to God, unless it flows out of our salvation .So even a man running into a burning building to save a child is considered a sin if it does not come from our faith

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The work of the saved has been designed and ordered by God. We are to be faithful to be diligent in whatever it is He has planned for us

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by good works we are saved by Grace .

Any fruit that comes from a tree that has shallow roots is of no value except the applause or recognition of men

God condemned those that believed in a plurality of Gods. I do not think He has changed His mind..but that is a part of the doctrine you are discussing. The roots of my tree is one God and Father ,three beings in one God..A God that is the God of all creation , The one and only God..that is a life giving vine

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Hello betty & AG,

A quick comment regarding fruit if it's not to forward of me.

We are yoked to the Creator of the universe, only so that we can be close enough to watch him do His beautiful work.

1. Cain - Crop by his labor (not fruit)
2. Abel - Lamb (fruit)
3. Ishmael - Abraham's and Sarah's solution(not fruit)
4. Isaac - God's solution(fruit)
5. Rightous Lot - drunk and seduced by his daughters - Ruth the Moabite (Line of Jesus)(fruit)
6. Jacob - prosperity of his goats over Laban's. (fruit)
7. Joseph - sold by brothers into slavery. (fruit)
8. Judah - "knows" widowed daughter-in-law Tamar. (Line of Jesus)(fruit)
9. Moses - neglects circumcising his son. Causes Moses' wife to honor God and circumcise her son. (fruit)
10. Esther - engages in pagan beauty pageant. Becomes queen that saves Jews. (fruit)
11. Rahab - Harlot (Line of Jesus) (fruit)
12. Gideon - Barney Fife of Bible characters (fruit)
13. Jonah - Reluctant, disgruntled prophet. Nineveh repents. (fruit)

It is all about God and nothing about us. One thing is consistent regarding fruit, the less we have to do with it the better, for then God rightly gets the glory. God provides the motivation and strength, we provide a willingness to respond.

It's not what we do, it's who we know. What Jesus has done and is doing through us. The "despite us" fruit is the real deal. The peace that surpasses understanding comes when we realize the pressure is off us. Study the Word of God so we will know who we are loving, and what He would have us do with that security.

Matt 5:3
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

After all, everyone has a little spark of the divine in them.

In faith and trust in God, Markofhumanfeet, I do believe that is exactly the case.

I do believe God loves His "sparky" children, each and all. And "hopes" for the "return" of the Prodigal Son. (Sorry. Human language just doesn't do justice to expressions of divine Love....)

Thanks, Mark.

I believe we'll find many in Heaven who have grasped what is necessary of the saving doctrine of Christ, despite what they were taught in "church," in order to let the True Seed of Jesus the Word grow their utterly critical relationship with God. I suspect these will include people presently resting their feet in churches low and high, and in all valences between utter congruence and utter apostacy. No man can say otherwise.

Dear Brother Arlen, we may be surprised to learn, reaching Heaven (if we ever do; I speak for me more than you here), that a whole lot of the saved aren't even Christians, "churched" or otherwise. God is the Father of all men and all creation. He may well find perfectly acceptable forms of worship that are outside our own tradition.

This doesn't mean that we ought to value our own tradition one jot or tittle less. It just recognizes the obvious: God has His Will in this world. And the Spirit bloweth where it wilt.

If we can recognize this, then maybe we humans can begin to understand the positive duty of love of neighbor -- for the love of God.

Truly you are right: "We judge all things yet we are judged by no one but Christ."

Which is why I say: Put your faith and trust in the Lord; be not troubled in mind, but do what you can to demonstrate your love for Him (love of neighbor is a divine sign). For all the rest, just leave it to Him.

For all the rest of it: Love life, seek the truth, and do what you can to help out with the chores....

I’m sorry, lockeliberty. I made a general response to everyone and meant to ping you, and notice now that I did not.

I do thank you for the 2 Timothy 3 excerpts. The chapter is prophetic. The beginning reads like today’s newspaper:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of [them] all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them]; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Thank you so much for your reply, your testimony, sharing your calling and the Scriptures! In particular, thank you for appreciating that different people are called and gifted to serve in different ways.

I can't envision either John or Peter being able to do what Paul did to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. Paul was gifted with the right personality, the right citizenship, the right education and right intellect for the mission Christ gave him.

And like Martha in Luke 10:38-42, after Jesus gave Peter his mission in John 21:15-20, Peter wanted to know what John was going to do (verse 21). But Jesus had something else in mind for John and told Peter not to be concerned about it:

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. - John 21:21-22

The bottom line is that we all have been given gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12) so that together we form the body of Christ, each with our own mission.

Thank you both so very much for your beautiful posts about the fruits of the Spirit!

All I can add is that the fruits are from Christ and are brought forth through us by the working of the indwelling Spirit. IOW, the fruit comes not by action but rather passively by submission:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. – Galatians 5:22-23

Thank you so very much for sharing your insight and personal testimony!

I agree! He has mercy and compassion as He choses and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Abraham for instance had noone to counsel him. Likewise there are those who are incapable of hearing in one fashion or another.

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