Posted on 02/10/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by ksen
AG: I appreciate your sensitivity to the Spirit. I agree that we should be lead by the Spirit. However, what I see is that you employ a distinct dualism in your approach to cosmology. On the one hand, in the natural, you rely heavily on the "doctrines" of mortal man. On the other hand, in the spiritual, you deny any doctrines of mortal man. This, it seems, is a result of your strong agreement with Platonism. Hopefully I will finish typing out my promised thread on the effects of dualism on Christianity, today, and we can discuss the postives and negatives of Greek dualism on Christian theology.
Dallas Willard, in his book Hearing God,delinates the objective and subjective pretty well, IMO.
I believe I can say with assurance that God's speaking in union with the human voice and human language is the primary objective way in which God addresses us. That is, of all the ways in which a message comes from outside the mind or personality of the person addressed, it most commonly comes through a human being....
The human spirit or the "still small voice." The final means through which God addresses us is our own spirit-our own thoughts and feelings toward ourselves as well as toward events and people around us. This, I believe, is the primary subjective way in which God addresses us. That is, of all the ways in which a message comes from within the experience of the person addressed (such as dreams and visions or other mental states), for those who are living in harmony with God it most commonly comes in the form of their own thoughts and attendant feelings.
Willard goes on to say that the subjective must always conform with the objective, FWIW.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
On the other hand, I would that everyone would err on the side of caution and not characterize the source of another’s Spiritual understanding.
Maybe on a case by case basis. In the case of Mormons or other cult memhers, we have to.
I look forward to your essay and suggest that you also ping betty boop, marron, unspun and cornelis.
I am however discovering a lot of very interesting things about Plato's other philosophies. I now believe he was specially gifted by God - much like Alexander the Great - to prepare the world for the Gospel. Alexander normalized the language to common Greek and Plato argued for the existence of the non-corporeal, non-temporal, non-spatial.
However, I do very much draw the line between mortal wisdom and Spiritual leading. This is based on I Corinthians 2 and the following:
Our discussion however had to do, specifically, with whether or not to characterize the source of another’s Spiritual understanding.
On the strength of Jude and the 12th chapter of the first three Gospels - I assert that we ought not to malign the source of another's Spiritual understanding.
You'll find that the passage in Proverbs is not an exhortation to discard your brain. But because I have to explain that, the conversation is pretty much over. Of course I agree with you when you say:
That pretty much sums up the difference between us.
I'll take that as a compliment.
Indeed. I do not subscribe to the doctrine of any mortal
Clearly Paul, Peter and John were mortals. Reviewing the quotations from Scripture that you provided I have to ask myself: Given your view of inerrancy and the doctrine of mortals, why bother? Why not just quote your spirit-led self?
CARepubGal gets it.
Hey Mar How be ya?
I like the interpretation of the OE on that parable. What it also shows is we are unable to get up ourselves .He has to pick us up because we are not able.
For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten [them], they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. – Acts 5:35-40
The judgments I make go to the beliefs or the incidents themselves. For instance, if a religious belief does not recognize Jesus Christ as the only begotten son of God, come to us from heaven and returned thereto - then I would declare such a belief as fatally flawed. Likewise, I would say that conversion by force is wrongful, etc.
When it comes to whether or not to listen to what a Christian has to say, I look to his fruits:
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:15-20
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
We are warned by God
Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
Ecc 9:3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.
The problem is discernment. Many cults have been started when the founder thought he was being led by the Holy Spirit .
What we do know is the word of God is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What ever leading we feel comes from the Holy Spirit must line up with the word of God
God leads us and confirms our walk with illumination ...that is why persistant study is a requirement of our walk
No Christian should ever look on illumination as automatic. God has never promised to reveal precious and profound Biblical truths to any believer who will not search the Scriptures for himself. ( John 20:31, Acts 17:11, 2 Tim 2:15, 1 Peter 2:2.)
Are you suggesting that I believe that's appropriate? If so, I'd like you to show how you got that from my posts. Then I can correct you.
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