On the Freedom of the Will: Part II: Section I (Refuting Arminian Free-Willism)

CCEL ^ | 1754 | Jonathan Edwards

[reflecting]

I have many, many thoughts and I suppose we could swap scripture verses for hours, but your are well studied and I am well studied so that is not my interest really....what I'm wondering as I see the cyclical resurgence of Calvinism is what forces are bring it around.....I am not speaking of the traditionally reform churches but the embracing of Calvin on college campuses and in SBC churches....

[SoliDeoGloria]

We critique each other's views with the same conclusion: God is unloving. When I see Arminianism, I can't help but ask, "how could God ever be a loving God in such a system?"

What will God tell those who are in Hell? "Sure I had the ability to save you, but I didn't want to force you!" Will such statements ease the burning tongues of flames? Will not every one of those wretched souls in Hell rightfully ask, "If you had loved me, why didn't you save me? It would have been better for me if you had forced my submission on earth than punish me for all eternity!"

What type of Love would prefer the opposite? Our God is a powerful God. Omnipotence means He has the power to save everyone...

Just some thoughts...

[Corin Stormhands]

Otherwise you'll look like a snakehandling hick.

You say that like itsuh bad thing...

I'm not trying to refute the logic. I'm trying to see why it's relevant. I don't think it is.

[xzins]

Spiritual death means they can do no good thing, even with God's enlightenment.

Therefore, spiritual life means they can do no bad thing, even with God's enlightenment.

___________________________________________________________

You wish the realm of spiritual death to be defined by our understanding of physical death. In physical death the body can do nothing, all life is gone from it.

The spiritually dead, however, continue to exist for an eternity where "their worm never dies."

And the spiritually alive continue to do bad for "if we say we have not sinned we deceive ourselves."

One cannot force the definition and all the characteristics of physical death onto spiritual death.

[A.J.Armitage]

Since everything stems from a first cause that means there is no free will doesn't explain for me God's decision to grant free will.

Well, any serious interaction with the argument?

From what's gone on so far, it looks an awful like when you try to examine how libertarian free will would work, it stops making any sense. Simply asserting that a libertarian free will exists won't do anything to change that.

[A.J.Armitage]

Hmmmm...very mechanistic world isn't it? Kinda like a clock...or maybe a puppet?

Or even a tree. You know, like the way a healthy orange tree can't help but make oranges.

[xzins]

You are an inspiration for me. Please review my #104 and see if you have any comments. Thank you.

I did understand that you believe in free will.

I also think that God has seen the movie already, and that we are seeing it work itself out.

Moreover, I think that God is able, based on our prayer and other things, to continue the editing of the movie so that the change goes into effect from the beginning.

[xzins]

I am asserting that God made MY free will. Therefore, I can make moral choices.

[reflecting]

Oh I am not an Arminian...I did not mean to misrepresent my self....I am (well now I need a real sophisticated/learned name to be taken seriously) a "you can not know what you are believing you know." God is very very very big. The neat systems of the very unlovely Calvin are little. Lets describe it this way....say all the knowledge of God is a golden sphere .... we have access to a small one dimensional sliver of that sphere ... and yet over and over again men jump to their feet and proclaim....now I've got it....now I know how God saves men.....

[A.J.Armitage]

I'm not trying to refute the logic. I'm trying to see why it's relevant. I don't think it is.

The logic proves that libertarian free will does not and cannot exist. Since Arminianism is the theological implication of libertarian free will, if the logic is true, Arminianism must be false.

In fact, I recall from Marsden's biography that Edwards said that if the Bible taught Arminianism, that would be enough to discredit Scripture. I'm inclined to agree. Soft determinism is the only position in philosophy of the mind that makes any sense, and this is just what we find Scripture teaching. If you don't like extended examinations of why libertarian free will can't work, listen to Jesus describing how bad trees bring bad fruit and good trees bring good fruit.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Spiritual death means they can do no good thing, even with God's enlightenment. Therefore, spiritual life means they can do no bad thing, even with God's enlightenment.

Straw Man, rejected.

Paul does not say, in Romans 7, that the Believer is not still tempted away from holiness by his Carnal nature after his spirit has been granted Spiritual Life. In fact, Paul says that the Believer's now-living spirit does struggle with his Carnal inheritance from Adam, until the day of Glorification.

However, in Romans 8, Paul also makes clear that the spirit of the Unregenerate Man is not Spiritually Alive, and will never accept Jesus as long as that Man remains Spiritually Dead. Period, no exceptions.

You wish the realm of spiritual death to be defined by our understanding of physical death. In physical death the body can do nothing, all life is gone from it. The spiritually dead, however, continue to exist for an eternity where "their worm never dies." And the spiritually alive continue to do bad for "if we say we have not sinned we deceive ourselves." One cannot force the definition and all the characteristics of physical death onto spiritual death.

I am not forcing the definition and all the characteristics of physical death onto spiritual death. I am simply proclaiming the definition of Spiritual Death given in Scripture:

A Spiritually-Dead Man will never believe on Jesus and repent unto Him, while that Man yet remains Spiritually Dead. (Romans 8:5-8)

Any "theology" which claims that a Spiritually Dead Man ever will Believe on Jesus and Repent unto Him, simply denies the express teaching of Romans and propagates the Lie of Eden: "Ye shall not surely die".

[A.J.Armitage]

I am asserting that God made MY free will.

And your assertion won't make free will in the sense you mean any more possible.

Therefore, I can make moral choices.

Your choices are morally significant because they reflect your underlying self.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements! You are an inspiration to me, xzins!

I read your post 104 and agree with each of your points! They are clear and easy to understand as you presented them.

Moreover, I think that God is able, based on our prayer and other things, to continue the editing of the movie so that the change goes into effect from the beginning.

Ditto! We know from math and physics that, from the aspect of any old extra time dimension, the phenomenon that we think of as time here in our four dimensional existence would be a plane and not a line. That means the past, present, future are all equally accessible and that cause/effect can be reversed to effect/cause.

Since we know this from math and physics, it must be unspeakable what God can do to our "physical realm."

Praise God!!!

[SoliDeoGloria]

Sorry to assume you were an Arminian. Very sorry...

Lets describe it this way....say all the knowledge of God is a golden sphere .... we have access to a small one dimensional sliver of that sphere ... and yet over and over again men jump to their feet and proclaim....now I've got it....now I know how God saves men.....

So are you suggesting that God didn't accurately describe His own salvific plan in the Bible? Does the Bible only give "a small one dimensional sliver" of the truth?

[xzins]

Not so, OP.

Since there is no 1 to 1 parallel between spiritual death and physical death, then there is no serious objection to prevenient grace enlightening the "spiritually dead," BECAUSE Jesus is the light who enlightens every man who comes into the world.

[reflecting]

yes that is what I am saying ...God does not tell you how
He does what he does.....He tells you what you must do....and He tells you you can't know or understand Him and His ways......all that is in the Word is Truth but not all Truth is in the Word of God.....

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I have many, many thoughts and I suppose we could swap scripture verses for hours, but your are well studied and I am well studied so that is not my interest really....what I'm wondering as I see the cyclical resurgence of Calvinism is what forces are bring it around.....I am not speaking of the traditionally reform churches but the embracing of Calvin on college campuses and in SBC churches....

Alright, lemme offer this suggestion:

The Calvinistic Doctrines of Total Depravity and Absolute Predestination being, as they are, the Biblical teachings on these subjects... the Holy Spirit works throughout the ages to always maintain a Remnant who are Faithful to these Biblical Teachings.

Have you considered that possibility? So now, the question you have to ask is: "Are the Calvinistic Doctrines of Total Depravity and Absolute Predestination, in fact, Biblical?"

You said that Calvinism paints God as unloving -- but you didn't explain why you think so. In fact, your statement simply presupposes that Calvinism is untrue -- for if Calvinism is true, then its understanding of God is, necessarily, not of an "unloving" God!

Which brings us back to this question:

Given, then, that ALL Fallen Men deserve Hell; and that NO Fallen Man would ever accept Jesus without first being Regenerated by the Holy Spirit; is God not perfectly Just to damn whomsoever He pleases, and perfectly Loving to grant Spiritual Life to whomsoever He pleases?

Yes, or No? Why, or Why Not? There's no need for an extended dissertation; it's a simple enough question.

Your thoughts?

[xzins]

You have been so helpful to me AG.

Since time is not a line, but a plane, then imagine the other dimensions of time that our finite minds cannot grasp and the multitude of possible other dimensions besides the 4 we recognize.

Truly, "Our God is an Awesome God."

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Not so, OP. Since there is no 1 to 1 parallel between spiritual death and physical death, then there is no serious objection to prevenient grace enlightening the "spiritually dead," BECAUSE Jesus is the light who enlightens every man who comes into the world.

"Enlighten" them all you want -- but so long as they remains Unregenerate, it doesn't do you a bit of good.

For as long as they remain Spiritually Dead, they still Hate God, and they still fall under the Rule of Romans 8:5-8:

A Spiritually-Dead Man will never believe on Jesus and repent unto Him, while that Man yet remains Spiritually Dead. (Romans 8:5-8)

Ironclad. No exceptions, in any case, ever.

Any claim that a Spiritually Dead Man ever will Believe on Jesus and Repent unto Him, simply denies the express teaching of Romans and propagates the Lie of Eden: "Ye shall not surely die".

[xzins]

I have just determined that your definition of spiritual death is inadequate.

Jesus CAN and DOES enlighten them.

One cannot overlay physical death on spiritual death and draw any parallels.

Within the "spiritually dead" person is an image of God, a conscience implanted by God, an enlightenment engineered by Jesus, and moments of conviction brought by the Holy Spirit and that especially when exposed to the word of God.

Your spiritual death is not properly understood by referral to human physical death.