[ksen]

I say it is God who knew at the moment of creation all those who would call on his name, and that there would be few.

Thanks for telling me what you say. Now let's see what the Bible says....

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Scripture is explicit when it says we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, not at its foundation.

[jimtorr]

You are only playing with words. Stop it, and be real, because others can play with words too.

I thought we were talking about what scripture means.

Do you want to convince me that I am given no choice but to beleive, or do you merely want to convince me of your own arrogance?

[harbingr]

From...www.Catholic-Defense.com...'This web site was developed mainly for non-Catholic Christians, but is also for Catholics who want to explain their faith to Protestants and non-Christians. Most often, this "defense" is against "Bible" Christians and Fundamentalist Christians.'

"On Justification" - by Tom Jensen

Excerpt:..
'...The Protestant position on justification is somewhat more difficult to define. With all due respect to my Protestant friends and without any belligerence or malice, I respectfully submit that the Protestant position contradicts itself. While the Calvinist and Lutheran positions differ in detail, they both suffer from the same defect -- Calvinists and Lutherans both affirm that justification is a "forensic," "legal" imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the sinner who is not thereby interiorly transformed. But simultaneously both camps affirm regeneration prior to justification that does inwardly change the sinner. Protestants deny the Catholic position that works done in grace are meritorious but themselves say that works of sanctification are a result of regeneration...'

'...An extensive examination of the teaching of Scripture on the subject is not possible here, and there are many excellent works on the subject from more competent writers than I. However, a few points must be briefly made. St. Paul writes "Man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28). The context is circumcision and the Jewish ceremonial law (Romans 4:9-12). When James says "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (James 2:24), the context is works of charity: clothing the naked and feeding the hungry (verses 15 and 16), showing mercy (verse 13). Of course, this is the work of Christ in us ("it is not I who live but Christ lives in me." Galatians 2:20). When God crowns our righteousness, He is crowning His own work within us; a Father loving His children not a judge pardoning guilty criminals. If the Bible never says we’re justified by "faith alone" and the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together is when it is rejected as a description of justification (James 2:24), why do Protestants use a description for justification that the Bible doesn’t use?...'

Also...

"Justification: Is The Debate Justifiable?" by Tom Jensen