You keep bleating this as though it has some meaning. Hey I can bleat with the best of you guys. :)
Do you think there is actually such a thing as a Baptist denomination?
No, what I'm saying is that 99.9% of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches reject Calvinism. The few that accept don't negate the other 99.9%. And you can take the 99.9% as meaning the majority.
I would say that what is more universally rejected is a dogmatic approach of extremism on either side. Whether they call themselves Calvinist or Arminian or, more commonly, wiggle away from both terms, I would say clergymen tend to get a foot in both camps when it comes to their preaching.
The no guts preacher syndrome, go along to get along instead of standing up against false teaching.
BigMack
No, what I'm saying is that 99.9% of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches reject Calvinism. The few that accept don't negate the other 99.9%. And you can take the 99.9% as meaning the majority.
But there is no great proof for your assertion.
Examine these pages, for instance, and show me where they condemn the doctrines of grace (Calvinism). Show me where they condemn Spurgeon and Gill, 'Calvinist' Baptists through and through.
What is an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church
WHAT IS AN INDEPENDENT FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST CHURCH?
The first one is a pretty sound historical survey of IFBC's, I think.
It seems to me that you are attempting to muster the (minor) influence of the IFBC's to support your position whereas they do not actually make a great issue of it. Not quite the position you claim for them.
You and David Cloud make far more of the issue than other IFBC's do.
I would suggest, as a matter of doctrine, that IFBC's are far more determined to battle ecumenicalism and New Evangelicalism (Billy Graham, Promise Keepers, etc.) and to uphold biblical inerrancy and proper bibles and study materials than they are concerned over the extent of Calvinist belief among their flocks.
BTW, don't think I'm dissing David Cloud. He has a really wonderful
website which I've used many times. And I'm certainly not the only Calvinist to benefit from Cloud's work and to use his efforts to further our own research. His focus on
Waldensian history is quite apt and a valuable online resource. Even to those Presbyterian folk.
Brother Cloud has the following to say (among other web pages) on the issue of Calvinism among Baptists:
The Calvinism Debate, Who Is The Enemy? Quicktime embedded in webpagedirect Quicktime movie link, (download to local hard drive or open in Quicktime player).
Really, go listen to it. You'll enjoy it. Notice how he opens by pointing out how all the early Baptist histories were written by
Calvinist Baptists. He accuses them of hiding the true history of Baptist churches and that Calvinism virtually killed Baptist churches entirely. Go listen, you'll like Brother Cloud's preaching. David Cloud overstates Calvinism and misreads his history and he further confuses hyper-Calvinism for historic evangelical Calvinism among Baptists like that of Spurgeon and Gill. You'll like the part where he recommends that you might as well blow your brains out if you're not Elect. Brother Cloud, to his credit among Arminians, can actually recite the TULIP accurately.
; )
BTW, I subscribe entirely to the tenets of the independent fundamental Baptist churches. But I tend to favor SBC as a practical matter. The differences should be examined but do not have quite as much merit as some IFBC's would claim.
The no guts preacher syndrome, go along to get along instead of standing up against false teaching.
I'll spare you the inane examples I've compiled personally when asking a Baptist preachers (both General and SBC) about Calvinist theology.
What's most shocking is that they don't really seem well acquainted with the issue and consider it to be some dry rot they had to absorb in seminary.