The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals ^ | R. C. Sproul

[P-Marlowe]

And, after picking myself up off the floor from laughing so hard that the Arminian has, ONCE again, hung himself with his own tongue, I asked him to impeach his own theology with that accusation.

Why don't you answer the original question with an answer instead of a question, and then I will respond in kind. You never answered my question. You just turned it around. Fine, turnabout is fair play. But, first you must answer my question. After you are done, feel free to turn it around. I am prepared to answer, but as long as you refuse to respond to my questions, I will refuse to respond to yours. After all, turnabout is fair play, eh?

[CCWoody]

***Better reword that one, Woodrow....***

Well, I was accused of that once by a presently posting Arminian.

Woody.

[CCWoody]

[Vernon]

Wow! We not only have a "theologian," but an english teacher, huh? Good shot, but it won't work.

Thanks for the advice, I suggest you try practicing some of your own theology that is NOT revisionist! Want to try taking it from the Greek, or which inerrantly inspired translation/version/paraphrase are you using. My point stands, and no amount of twisting and turning can change the facts.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Wow! We not only have a "theologian," but an english teacher, huh? Good shot, but it won't work. Thanks for the advice, I suggest you try practicing some of your own theology that is NOT revisionist! Want to try taking it from the Greek, or which inerrantly inspired translation/version/paraphrase are you using. My point stands, and no amount of twisting and turning can change the facts.

The bottom line being that, even if we establish "Believing God" in verse 12 as the necessity for Adoption into God's Family (and this is certainly true), Verse 13 goes on to tell us that the existence of this Belief in the Man CANNOT EVER be ascribed to Man's Will, and MUST ALWAYS be ascribed to God's Will alone. SO, according to Verse 13 -- You can define "Belief in God" any way you like, as long as it is "NOT of the will of the flesh, NOR of the will of man, but of God".

Nah, nah nah nah... Can't touch this.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I am prepared to answer, but as long as you refuse to respond to my questions, I will refuse to respond to yours. After all, turnabout is fair play, eh?

What about me?

So, when God permits Murder, is His Will to grant such Permission -- imperfect?
236 posted on 02/09/2004 5:14:30 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian

Just wonderin'....

[Frumanchu]

Thanks for the advice, I suggest you try practicing some of your own theology that is NOT revisionist! Want to try taking it from the Greek, or which inerrantly inspired translation/version/paraphrase are you using. My point stands, and no amount of twisting and turning can change the facts.

Good idea, Vern. Why don't you explain to us the meaning of Acts 13:48 FROM THE GREEK.

[Vernon]

Try this..."...but as many as received him he gave to them authority children of God to be, to those that believe on name his..." That sir, is the Greek, and there ain't none of your parsing and spinning there. The authority to become children of God was - and is - conditioned on them and our receiving Him!

Certainly the power to become a child of God came from God; however, it is very clear that it is conditioned on receiving him, and it doesn't say one word other than that. End of issue - Period.

[Vernon]

Naw, you have all the infallible, inerrant answers...I await your insight.

[Frumanchu]

Nope. I insist. You appear to prefer going right to the Greek. The English, as translated in every translation I can find, certainly seems to indicate that appointment unto eternal life preceded their belief instead of being the result of it. I'm curious to see how you explain that away. Perhaps the Greek shows us something the English does not?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Try this..."...but as many as received him he gave to them authority children of God to be, to those that believe on name his..." That sir, is the Greek, and there ain't none of your parsing and spinning there. The authority to become children of God was - and is - conditioned on them and our receiving Him! Certainly the power to become a child of God came from God; however, it is very clear that it is conditioned on receiving him, and it doesn't say one word other than that. End of issue - Period.

Sorry, cuz... you can't just arbitrarily lop off the First Chapter of John at Verse 12 and anti-Biblically pretend that Verse 13, which gives explanation to Verse 12 (note the colon? English punctuation is useful!), does not exist. Homey don't play dat.

And as verse 13 explains -- you can define Spiritual Regeneration anyway you like, as long as man's Will is NEVER party to the equation.

"them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

• "Them that believe" is here Present Tense.
• "Which were born" is here Past Tense.

Ergo, Spiritual Regeneration precedes Belief, and is created wholly by God's Will Alone with Man's Will playing no part in Spiritual Regeneration whatsoever.

[connectthedots]

There are more ways to be satisfied sexually than intercourse that are not outside of God's will.

[Alex Murphy]

Must.....not.....get.....suspended........

Must.....not.....mention.....ex-wife.....

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

There are more ways to be satisfied sexually than intercourse that are not outside of God's will.

Regarding various forms of Marital sexual interaction -- I will say that I think that Onan had an anti-childbearing, contraceptive mindset towards his wife, which I do think to be a sinful attitude of mind.

However, if a Couple does not suffer from such an attitude... then as to their diverse sexual activities, Where the Bible is silent, I am silent.

[Vernon]

Well, take a look at it. The fact is that this verse has been tragically twisted. The actual word used here for "ordained" includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. Even if it did, which it does not, it is an incredible extension to even suggest that they persevered to the end.

[Vernon]

Amazing what contortions one will go through in a effort to support what simply is not there.

[Vernon]

No one is lopping off anything...that is straight from the Greek, and those who don't like the way it reads will have to write their own version, which some have been doing for quite some time. Slowly the truth is being realized.

[Vernon]

I'm long overdue to leave here and get some things done. Ya'all have fun. Keep twisting and explaining away. I'll eventually back.

[The Grammarian]

You people are vicious.

[Frumanchu]

Well, take a look at it. The fact is that this verse has been tragically twisted. The actual word used here for "ordained" includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. Even if it did, which it does not, it is an incredible extension to even suggest that they persevered to the end.

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. -Acts 13:48 (NKJV)

Seems to me that the verb believed refers back to the relative clause as many as had been appointed to eternal life. It doesn't say "and as many as believed were appointed unto eternal life." Their appointment to eternal life preceded their belief, and moreover their belief manifest a prior distinction between them and the other Gentiles who did not believe. They (those who were appointed to eternal life) believed. The others (those who were not appointed to eternal life) did not. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, in English anyway.