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To: nobdysfool
actions that obtain salvation for that man.
Action but not works obtain salvation?

Predestination does not mean that it is already done, only that it will be done.

Done on what conditions or at what time?

Not REQUIRED in the sense that it is those works themselves that save him...The very first of those acts is to believe on Christ, which results in eternal life.

Is not this act of believing required for eternal life/salvation or are eternal life and salvation different?

The mistake is thinking that the actions themselves save, or that God's Predestination itself saves, apart from the work of Christ, or from God's resuscitation of the sinner's heart. Man cooperates in the sense that he freely chooses Christ, AFTER he has first been resucitated by God to be ABLE to cooperate.

I'm afraid I am missing something here too.
Is it not God's will?
Predestination is not sufficient.
Christ works are not sufficient.
Man or his works are not sufficient.

God needs mans cooperation to be able to affect his soviergn will?

God needed to have Christ's works to enable his sovereign will?

God needed his own predestination of the elect to grant his sovereign will?

The works themselves do not cause salvation. They are evidence that salvation has occurred.

Who requires this evidence?

Of what value is this evidence and to whom does it have value?

36 posted on 01/07/2004 5:51:38 AM PST by PFKEY
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To: PFKEY; nobdysfool
36 posted on 01/07/2004 5:51:38 AM PST by PFKEY

Hey, PFKEY, guess what -- you've just been in a terrible accident, and you're dead (it's an anology, follow me through on this).

However, I have a pair of electro-shock paddles on hand, and I can bring you back -- if I so choose.

Now, if I choose to shock you back to life, you are going to breathe -- for breathing is what living men do. Is breathing necessary for life? Sure, living things require oxygen. Is it you who are doing the breathing, or me? Obviously, you. So was it your choice to live and breathe? No, it wasn't. You were dead -- you weren't choosing anything.

It was my choice which caused you to live and breathe (again, in this example), not yours. So you are doing the breathing, and breathing is necessary for life -- but the fact that you live and breathe was all of my choice, and none of yours.

99 posted on 01/07/2004 11:10:56 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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