Dear Frank,
How is taking out Saddam getting rid of the fundamentalist Islamics all over the world? How is it stopping the spread of the above? We are the country (not France and Germany) that is becoming less relevant in the eyes of Europeans.
I equate Bush with dictatorship. Yes, with Hitler--he started out saying he was going to liberate all the countries that he took over. He pre-emptively took over those countries. He was arrogant and a bully. Bush can't wait to get his hand on Iraqi oil. He is an arrogant ass.
If I were president I would not have done my arrogant best to get all the allies to hate us. I would not start a war without figuring out how we will pay for it and how long we will be there. I would put more money into homeland security instead of sending all the troops overseas. I would not drill in the artic. I would not let our forests be cut down indiscriminately. I would deal with Saddam through the United Nations, not go it alone.
I would be sick to hear that the Pentagon has ordered 75,000 body bags (and they have) to send our youth back home in. I would not call it liberating the Iraqi people by going in and blasting them to kingdom come. I would not cover the truth with saying we will "liberate" the people of Iraq. I would tell the Americans that it will take trillions (this is the number that has been reported on CNN and in many papers) and that we may be in Iraq for ten years or more. After "Liberating" the people out of their homes and into the hereafter we will have to rebuild the place.
Where will the money come from since we already have a huge deficit? It will come down to the cities and states which will get less and less money and cut more and more services (maybe even close state parks if it gets bad enough) and state and local taxes will skyrocket even more than it has. Are you willing to pay the price to get rid of Saddam? Trillions of dollars sunk into that sink hole, maybe thousands of American lives lost not to mention increased terrorism here in the US as retaliation for the war; huge deficits, an economy even more messed up than it now is; a stock market that doesn't know which way is up.
I am through talking about this. You can send all the quotes you want. I won't read any more of it. The whole thing is making me ill.
Can we please quit talking about this. It makes me ill.
MY RESPONSE SO FAR...
Dear Mom,
I’m confused…Why do you think you can express your opinions to me and then deny my right to reply to your questions? I’m going to exercise my right and respond to your latest email.
Your first question asked how taking out Saddam gets rid of the Islamic fundamentalists worldwide. My answer is that it does not!
Next you asked how is it stopping the spread of the fundamentalists’ agenda. My answer again is that it is not!
Please allow me to share my thoughts on exactly what removing Saddam will accomplish.
First, it will stop the thousands of murders Saddam is committing on his own people. The very latest atrocity reported is that he is now executing some of his own scientists so they cannot reveal his WMD secrets. I can give you the reference for this if you doubt it.
Next, I believe it will greatly reduce the Islamic fundamentalists’ ability to acquire WMD that they want to use on us. Saddam has them; the Islamic wackos have already tried to get them. We must dismantle the worldwide terrorist organization and ridding the world of Saddam is just one step. Fasten your seat belt because there are more countries harboring and training terrorists. They’re next and I support it. We must prevent them from getting a nuke or it’s goodbye to an American city.
I don’t know where you are getting your information from but there are many more European countries (16 out of 19) that support us than don’t. That doesn’t sound like we’re ‘going it alone’. If you would like a reference on this point let me know.
You state President Bush is a dictator. A dictator is a ruler who is not effectively restricted by a Constitution, laws or recognized opposition. A dictator is a person who makes pronouncements which are regarded as supremely authoritative. Hitler was a dictator; President Bush is not a dictator. Saddam is a dictator; President Bush is not like Saddam. President Bush is our President. President Bush believes in defending our country. Deal with it.
You stated Bush can’t wait to get his hand on Iraqi oil. I find that a ridiculous statement and cannot agree with it as we were there in Kuwait and Iraq before and didn’t take over the oil fields. Think about it. If that was the case why didn’t we do it then? There is no country in the world that could have prevented it. Look at it this way. We’re in Kuwait right now. Are we trying to take over their oil? It would be very easy to do so…
Your statement that Bush is an arrogant ass is your personal opinion and has nothing to do with whether or not we should remove Saddam from power. President Truman, a president I respect, did not earn the nickname ‘Give’em Hell Harry’ by being gentle and/or being politically correct. Your statement tells me that you are one of those who are blinded by your dislike for this Republican President. Let me prove it. Everywhere you see Bush’s name, replace it with Clinton’s name. Does the picture change any? You know it does. Fact: President Bush and President Clinton both shared the same view on removing Saddam from power and their view is for the protection of the USA. When Clinton launched hundreds of cruise missiles and deployed our military in other countries without going to the UN first, no one in the world stood up and complained. Not even the UN! Nor you!
President Bush is not doing his arrogant best to get the ‘allies’ to hate us. Where did you get that idea? Again, I say your bias is blinding you. President Bush is forcing the UN to do what they were supposed to be doing over the past several years. What good is the UN if they issue resolutions and then don’t back them up? Seventeen resolutions in twelve years (eight of those years being under President Clinton’s watch) have been issued to Saddam to disarm and the only change is that he constantly continues his quest for more WMD. Even as he is currently destroying those illegal missiles, he is producing more. Where is it going to stop? Someone must stand up to him and that is exactly what President Bush is doing, with the support of the MAJORITY of European governments. Thank God we have a president with the conviction to protect our country from evil. Rather than selling missile secrets to China for cash, rather than setting up Korea with the ability to make nuclear bombs, he is standing up to the “axis of evil”. No wonder they hate us.
Do you know that there are pro-war rallies nationwide? Do you know there are people who see the need to disarm Saddam, French people and German people who support President Bush? I’ll bet you didn’t. It seems like our liberal news channels are ignoring these facts. You mentioned CNN; I rest my case.
You said you would not start a war without figuring out the cost. Like we did that with Japan, Germany, Korea and Vietnam? Please tell me how you would calculate the cost of the war prior to the war. There are so many variables involved I would not even attempt to do so. We are still in Japan and Germany after WWII but look at what we’ve done with those two fascist countries. Was it worth it? I would certainly say it was.
I agree with you in that more should be done with homeland security but not sending the troops overseas as you stated seems to me to be sort of an isolationist attitude. Let me ask you this. Did you protest when Clinton involved us with more overseas deployments of our military then any other President in history? All without UN sanction… When Americans were dieing from these deployments did you protest?
What would bringing the troops home do to increase homeland security? It is against the law to use federal troops on the border. It is against the law to use the military as civilian police. So what would you do? Declare martial law and have the military run the country? I don’t think so. Do you want the military standing on every corner of our cities, checking our IDs and asking for reasons of being at a certain location without their approval?
Your statement about drilling in the Arctic and not cutting down the forests does not fit in the scope of ousting Saddam Hussein. It sounds like Bush bashing to me.
You say you would deal with Saddam through the UN rather that going it alone. What do you think has been happening for the past 12 years in the UN, resolution after resolution? What do you think President Bush has been doing? How many more resolutions and years of delay must pass before we take a different course? And where do you get the idea that we are ‘going it alone’? Look at the facts. There are currently 35 nations in the “Coalition of the Willing.”
I have a friend who told me the definition of stupidity. “Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results”. Doesn’t this sound like the UN?
Yes, the Pentagon has ordered body bags. It happens every time prior to the possibility of war. It doesn’t mean they will all come back full, does it? There are tens of thousands of white crosses marking our brave soldiers’ graves on foreign soils, particularly in France. The French would be speaking German today if our brave President at that time in history had not stepped up to the plate.
You paint a pretty pessimistic scenario in reference to removing Saddam. I would venture to say it will be a lot cheaper to stop him now before he expands and takes over the Middle East and who knows how far out he will go after that. And yes I am willing to pay the price to stop Saddam. I am willing to pay the price to stop the radical Islamic Fundamentalists. I am not willing to see our country nuked by WMD furnished by countries like Iraq that support the Muslim movement to take over the world using violence. I would not have it any other way.
You referred to Iraq as ‘that sinkhole’; you mentioned the possibility of American lives being lost and the possibility of retaliation in the US. First of all, Iraq is not a sink hole. It is a country of people like you and me that are being crushed by a murderous dictator. These people are not barbarians. They are educated people like us without the freedom we enjoy. You forget to mention that they might lose lives along with us. The Iraqis who have managed to escape from Iraq know that and are still willing to do what it takes to oust Saddam. They realize freedom is not free and without sacrifice. What has happened to the compassion from the left for the people of Iraq? Just as the radical Islamic Fundamentalists are willing to die for their cause, so must we. Kill or be killed…
I am sorry for you that this subject is making you ill. I am worried and fearful, too. I hope and pray there will be no war. But I also realize that for a free democratic world to exist, we must rid ourselves of the terrorists’ world wide that are striving to destroy us. We cannot negotiate these evil empires away. History tells us freedom comes through strength and action. I really think that if you could somehow overlook your dislike for Bush you’d have a different opinion on removing Saddam.
Letting your personal feelings for our President cloud your perspective and burying your head in the sand is not the answer.
I find your last statement very interesting. You stated “Can we please quit talking about this? It is making me ill”. I have heard this sentiment from others who do not want to face reality. Are you using it as a defense to terminate the discussion because you really don’t have an answer or that perhaps you know I am right?
Your Son,
Frank
OK, its Mom and all, but she's very wrong.
I have a liberal environazi brother with communist tendencies so I know how it is to have a family member on the extreme left. He's still stuck in the '60's, he is quite condescending towards those that aren't "enlightened", and if he weren't handicapped, I suspect he'd be out there marching with the ANSWER crowd. But there's hope for him yet - he doesn't work in the museum any more, so that leftist influence is gone. And, he's taken to going to church regularly. Who knows, maybe he'll be cured of liberalism some day.
As for my relationship with bro - I live 600 miles away so I don't have to correspond with him very often. When I do visit the family, I generally avoid the subject, though I do throw an occasional jab at him. :^) It was interesting a few weeks ago when he and I were at my sister's house and Bob B-1 Dornan came up on the TV. Bro just went into a leftist tirade about Dornan's being an a**h*** and how flippin' stupid he was and on and on. I simply asked him to substantiate his assessment of Bob Dornan's mental condition. He shut up quickly. Calm responses to emotional rhetoric are helpful when discussing these matters.
Pure BS.
Your mother is so out of touch with reality that all you can do is pray for her. That's the policy that I've adopted with my mother-in-law 8-)
I would drop back to subtleties and little reminders if it were me.
Very low key & humble, as these are your parents.
I came to the conclusion a while ago that someone like my/your mom can't be reasoned with. Therefore don't try--it only causes wounded feelings, feuds, and things that in the long run you'll regret after your parents are dead.
My 75 year old mother is a "My way or the highway" raging leftist, a card-carrying member of N.O.W., NARAL, The Feminist Majority, GreenPeace, The ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc. I spent many younger years of my life arguing with her about everything (including politics), and all it did was cause hurt feelings and enstrangement. You're not going to convince your mother of anything, period.
How I ultimately dealt with my mother whenever she'd try to start a political argument with me:
I basically told her (several times):
"Mom, I love you, and I believe that good people can disagree on important things. I don't want to argue about politics. You have your beliefs, and I have mine, and we aren't going to change each others' minds. I don't want to debate politics with you because all it does is make you angry. You're 75 years old, and we don't have forever to fight and make up anymore. Life is just too short. Let's agree to disagree and focus on things we do agree on--like the world's most beautiful/smartest grand daughter (my daughter)."
I love my mom, and I respect what she went through to raise me. However, we are very different people, I probably wouldn't choose her as a friend, and our values are very, very different. By handling things the way I have with her, we have reached a lasting truce (finally).
I have two adopted children, and would be happy to have a third (assuming your college bills are paid and you don't mind becoming a Texan). FReep mail me with the details if you want me to get the ball rolling at my end. ;-)
Good luck,
Dad
If it's any consolation, my family's the same way. The funny thing is...they're extremely conservative! But don't be the one to point that out to them. I just poke fun...it drives them crazy.
Hey, I take revenge where I can.
Best Regards,
Red herring / straw man. Nobody is making that argument.
We are the country (not France and Germany) that is becoming less relevant in the eyes of Europeans.
And the importance of this is what, exactly?
I equate Bush with dictatorship.
You can make that equation in your own mind all you want, but don't expect anyone else to agree with you, since you have nothing but your own hatred of Bush to back it up.
Yes, with Hitler--he started out saying he was going to liberate all the countries that he took over. He pre-emptively took over those countries. He was arrogant and a bully.
Yes, and everyone knew that Hitler was lying about the "liberation" thing from the very beginning. Even Neville Chamberlain knew that; it's why he ran squealing to Munich to work out a deal; if Hitler had been telling the truth, who would have cared?
By comparison, everyone today knows that it's Iraq that needs liberating (though that's not our main reason for going in, so this is sort of a straw man / red herring as well). And no argument you can come up with can disguise the FACT that Saddam is not the legitimate ruler of Iraq. He murdered his way to power. That means you should be CHEERING any action that will make his people free.
Bush can't wait to get his hand on Iraqi oil.
It has been proven physically, fiscally and mathematically that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for this to be about Bush getting "his" hands on Iraqi oil. Anyone that makes this argument is either an intentional liar or an imbecile.
Oh, by the way Mom, what about the billions of dollars' worth of deals, mostly oil-based, that France, Germany and Russia have with Iraq? By your line of thinking, why is their extreme pressure to prevent any war not EQUALLY about getting their hands on Iraqi oil? come on, we're waiting for an answer.
He is an arrogant ass.
This is hate speech, not an argument.
If I were president I would not have done my arrogant best to get all the allies to hate us.
(Okay, we know you like the word "arrogant." Please stop using it in every other sentence.) And my question above stands: Why shouldn't I believe that their newfound hatred of us (which, by the way, they all insist is not the case, and that this is merely a "disagreement") is based purely on the fact that we're about to seriously F--- up their drooling lust for Iraqi oil?
I would not start a war without figuring out how we will pay for it and how long we will be there.
Bulls--- falsehoods. It is impossible to know how long we'll be there until the first objectives are successfully obtained. And we already know how we'll pay for it. You simply don't want to take the time to read up on it.
I would put more money into homeland security instead of sending all the troops overseas. I would not drill in the artic. I would not let our forests be cut down indiscriminately.
Irrelevant red herring, irrelevant red herring, irrelevant red herring. All three of these are near-certain indications that we're merely dealing with a Bush-hater, not anyone seriously interested in the issue at hand.
I would deal with Saddam through the United Nations, not go it alone.
Guess what dear? As of this point, that is PRECISELY WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING ALL ALONG. In case you haven't noticed, WE HAVEN'T INVADED IRAQ AND TAKEN OUT SADDAM YET. We've been playing the UN game ALL ALONG. So stop lying.
I would be sick to hear that the Pentagon has ordered 75,000 body bags (and they have) to send our youth back home in.
Yeah, but it would be just fine as long as the UN gave their rubber stamp to it? Or if the UN placed the order itself? You couldn't care less about the number of dead American soldiers except where the body count can be used to attack George W. Bush and help elect your precious Hillary into the White House.
Oh, and you appear to be conveniently ignoring the fact that last time, we ordered 16,000 body bags, and ended up using 390. And almost a full 1/3 of that number was due to a single lucky shot when of one Saddam's completely aimless SCUDs happened to randomly fall in the middle of a US base.
I would not call it liberating the Iraqi people by going in and blasting them to kingdom come.
So you have access to all of the Pentagon's most highly classified documents, and know for a fact that our battle plan is "Go in and nuke everything in sight"? No, you don't. So stop lying.
I would not cover the truth with saying we will "liberate" the people of Iraq.
It is physically impossible for you to know what the battle plan is, thus it is impossible for you to know what "the truth" is. Stop lying. (And you DO know perfectly well that the citizens of free, democratic Iraq will indeed be liberated compared to the authoritarian cult of personality they currently live under.)
I would tell the Americans that it will take trillions (this is the number that has been reported on CNN and in many papers) and that we may be in Iraq for ten years or more.
The public already knows the latter - it's so typical of a liberal to think only THEY know what's going on, while everyone else is completely clueless. And the "trillions" number has been reported on CNN and in many papers ... where it was almost immediately debunked as insanely laughable, many orders of magnitude beyond even the wildest possible real life scenario.
After "Liberating" the people out of their homes and into the hereafter we will have to rebuild the place.
More lies. We're going to literally kill EVERY SINGLE IRAQI, and yet the moment we're done doing that, we'll have to rebuild the completely empty country. Does. Not. Compute.
Where will the money come from since we already have a huge deficit? It will come down to the cities and states which will get less and less money and cut more and more services (maybe even close state parks if it gets bad enough) and state and local taxes will skyrocket even more than it has.
No, once more you're lying. It will largely come from the sale of Iraqi oil, which will be ours for the period of time we're running a military occupational government.
Are you willing to pay the price to get rid of Saddam?
I would be, yes, even if we had to pay every last cent ourselves.
Trillions of dollars sunk into that sink hole, maybe thousands of American lives lost not to mention increased terrorism here in the US as retaliation for the war;
Lie; Possible truth, but unknown, and it doesn't matter anyway since we have an all-volunteer armed forces and they knew what they were getting into; and Lie, because we're going to be subject to increased terrorism whether we take out Saddam now or sit on our hands like pansies for years and wait for Saddam to get powerful enough to either attack us himself or to openly sell his WMD technology to other terrorists.
huge deficits, an economy even more messed up than it now is; a stock market that doesn't know which way is up.
Lie, lie, lie. The former has been dealt with here already, and as for the latter two, those will be solved as soon as the main military campaign is over, in a matter of weeks at most.
I am through talking about this. You can send all the quotes you want. I won't read any more of it. The whole thing is making me ill. Can we please quit talking about this. It makes me ill.
Then I suggest you stop lying to your son, and maybe he'll stop feeling the need to drown you in free Clues®. And by the way, you want to know what true arrogance is? It's sending a thousand-word spewage of anger and hate to someone, and then admitting at the very end that you're not the least bit interested in hearing what the person you just spent the last twenty minutes insulting has to say in response.
One point to make on this, Frank, is that Saddam is paying $25k to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
Stopping that alone would be worth it.
SD
Just out of human decency I'm moving to another thread . Good luck .
With mom, you have one choice - are you going to engage in political or religious discussions, or are you going to Christmas and Thanksgiving dinner? Well, which is it? Do you feel lucky today? Do you?