How We Got Fluoridated

Stop Fluoridation USA ^ | Unknown | Philip Heggen

[FormerLurker]

I'm aware of the chart, but it doesn't answer how you get from a measure of solubility to a measure of ionic concentration. I want you to explain what those solubility numbers has to do with the concentration of fluoride in water.

Now WHY would you want me to do that? It is clear that in a liter of water, calcium fluoride will stop dissolving at 16 ppm. Sodium fluoride will continue to dissolve in the same liter of water up to 42,200 ppm, or 42.2 grams. That means that 16 MILLIGRAMS of fluoride ion are available if the solute is calcium fluoride, whereas 42,200 MILLIGRAMS (42.2 GRAMS) of fluoride ions are available if the solute is sodium fluoride

Now going back to post 394, where it was shown that a 3 year old boy weighing 30 pounds has roughly 0.5 liters of water in his bloodstream. With calcium fluoride, the maximum amount of fluoride ions availble would be 8 mg, whereas with sodium fluoride it would be 21.1 grams. So that is what the problem is Tom, dissolved sodium fluoride will reach lethal concentrations in the blood stream, whereas calcium fluoride WON'T.

[FormerLurker]

In any event, you obviously don't even read my posts.

Well you like to throw numbers around Tom, and it seemed like one post said the same thing as the other only using different numbers. You are saying "As of 1977" in one thread, and "since 1970" in the other. It was just a simple oversight on my part...

[TomB]

Now WHY would you want me to do that?

Because you are really misunderstanding this issue.

It is clear that in a liter of water, calcium fluoride will stop dissolving at 16 ppm. Sodium fluoride will continue to dissolve in the same liter of water up to 42,200 ppm, or 42.2 grams.

Let's look at a liter of water, both naturally fluoridated, and naturally free of water but with sodium fluoride added.

Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that in order to get to a concentration of 1 ppm, you need 10,000 fluoride ions present in that liter. Now, you must ad a certain amount of compound to get to that level, in this case, 10,000 "units" of sodium fluoride or 5,000 units of calcium fluoride.

Once that substance is added to the water, the sodium fluoride, because it is so highly soluble, completely dissociates into Na and F ions. Therefore when you drink that liter, you can only get those 10,000 ions. There is no more soduim fluoride to dissociate and get the "42.2 grams". So all these numbers you are tossing around are useless. The concentration is already limited.

[FormerLurker]

You know what Tom, something just dawned on me. We'd have to account for the fact that the anion disassociated from the fluoride ion will need to be accounted for as far as the weight goes. So for now, without going to a periodic table and determining the actual weight, let's just assume that both the anion and the fluoride ion weigh about the same. Since calcium fluoride (CaF₂) has two fluoride ions for every calcium ion, we need to reduce fluoride ion availablity by one third.

And since sodium fluoride (NaF) has only one fluoride ion for every sodium ion, then we reduce it's available fluoride ions by half.

So, calcium fluoride would have roughly 5 mg of fluoride ions available in a liter of water, whereas sodium fluoride would have a fluoride availablity of roughly 21,100 mg.

SO that means calcium fluoride in the bloodstream of a 30 lb. child would only reach a maximum of 2.5 mg fluoride ion availability, where the fluoride ion availability of sodium fluoride would be 10,550 mg. Now that's still lethal Tom.....

[TomB]

So, calcium fluoride would have roughly 5 mg of fluoride ions available in a liter of water, whereas sodium fluoride would have a fluoride availablity of roughly 21,100 mg

If you have a liter of water, and enough compound is added to it to raise the level of fluoride to 1ppm, where is all this extra coming from?

Somehow you are taking these solubility numbers and assuming an indefinite supply of NaF, but that isn't the case, there is only enough NaF added to raise the level to 1ppm.

[William Terrell]

An interesting thought: Ripper is a character in a story and his dialoge was written by a professional writer for a Hollywood movie corporation.

[schmelvin]

I used to work as a dental assistant, and I can assure everyone here that there is an ongoing debate in the dental community regarding the harmfulness vs. the usefulness of fluoride. Same goes for the mercury in amalgam fillings.

This isn't a junk science, conspiracy nut, "Flat Earther" issue. It's a valid topic of debate. Dentists don't laugh at other dentists who worry about the potentially harmful effects of fluoride. They may vehemently disagree with them. But, they don't laugh at them.

[aruanan]

You know what Tom, something just dawned on me. We'd have to account for the fact that the anion disassociated from the fluoride ion will need to be accounted for as far as the weight goes. So for now, without going to a periodic table and determining the actual weight, let's just assume that both the anion and the fluoride ion weigh about the same. Since calcium fluoride (CaF2) has two fluoride ions for every calcium ion, we need to reduce fluoride ion availablity by one third.

And since sodium fluoride (NaF) has only one fluoride ion for every sodium ion, then we reduce it's available fluoride ions by half.

So, calcium fluoride would have roughly 5 mg of fluoride ions available in a liter of water, whereas sodium fluoride would have a fluoride availablity of roughly 21,100 mg.

SO that means calcium fluoride in the bloodstream of a 30 lb. child would only reach a maximum of 2.5 mg fluoride ion availability, where the fluoride ion availability of sodium fluoride would be 10,550 mg. Now that's still lethal Tom.....

No, you don't have "to account for the fact that the anion disassociated from the fluoride ion will need to be accounted for as far as the weight goes." This is all chemical nonsense. When fluoride concentration is measured in the water, the amount being referred to is the biologically available fluoride. When it's measured at 1 part per million, it doesn't make any difference whether it's fluoride that comes from naturally-occurring groundwater sources or from deliberate addition or whether it comes from sodium fluoride or calcium fluoride. One ppm fluoride from calcium fluoride is EXACTLY the same as one ppm fluoride from sodium fluoride.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, you had one form of fluoride that completely dissociated in a given amount of water and another that was 60% soluble in the same amount of water and you wanted to end up with a certain concentration of free fluoride ion in the same amount of water (assuming that that concentration desired per unit volume of water was attainable given the solubility of the less soluble form), you'd have to add fewer moles of the more soluble form to equalize the concentrations of fluoride ions between the two containers--but in the end the concentrations would still be exactly the same.

[FormerLurker]

Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that in order to get to a concentration of 1 ppm, you need 10,000 fluoride ions present in that liter. Now, you must ad a certain amount of compound to get to that level, in this case, 10,000 "units" of sodium fluoride or 5,000 units of calcium fluoride.

No, let's say that there is 1 mg of calcium fluoride. If we look at the atomic weight of fluorine, it is about 19. Calcium has an atomic weight of 40. SO that means in 1 mg of calcium fluoride, we have a proportion of (2 * 19 F)/59 CaF₂ in the weight of the fluorine atom to the calcium atom, so that means we have about 0.64 mg of fluoride ions available in 1 mg of calcium fluoride.

As far as sodium fluoride NaF, the atomic weight of sodium is 23, so the proportion for fluorine to calcium is 19 F/42 NaF, so the amount of fluorine in 1 mg of sodium fluoride is 0.45 mg fluorine.

That means if we have the maximum soluability amount of 16 mg of sodium fluoride dissolved in a liter of water, since 1 mg of CaF₂ is accepted as 1 ppm in a liter of water, there'd be (16 * 0.64)mg of fluoride ions, or 10.24 mg available fluoride ions. Any more sodium fluoride would simply be held in suspension, unless so much was added it reached supersaturation, where it would then precipitate into solid crystals.

With sodium fluoride, there'd be a limit of 42,200 mg dissolved, so that would be (42,000 * 0.45)mg, or 18,900 mg (18.9 g) of fluoride ions available.

[FormerLurker]

Actually I had it backwards in the post where I said the proportion of fluoride ions to calcium was about one third. It would actually be two thirds, I was distracted and had it backwards. I would have been close if I would have it the right direction. So with sodium fluoride, there's roughly a maximum of 5.12 mg of fluoride ions available in the bloodstream of a 30 lb. child, whereas with sodium fluoride there's a maximum of 19,450 mg of available fluoride ions.

[fightu4it]

Do you brush your teeth every day? If you look on the tube you will see a poison warning on virtually every major brand sold.

What are the cumulative effects of putting poison in your mouth every day of your life?

[HighWheeler]

[FormerLurker]

whereas with sodium fluoride there's a maximum of 19,450 mg of available fluoride ions.

That should have said 9,450 mg of available fluoride ions..... Finger slipped on post before I had a chance to correct it.

[FormerLurker]

What are the cumulative effects of putting poison in your mouth every day of your life?

Nothing good...

[FormerLurker]

Once that substance is added to the water, the sodium fluoride, because it is so highly soluble, completely dissociates into Na and F ions. Therefore when you drink that liter, you can only get those 10,000 ions. There is no more soduim fluoride to dissociate and get the "42.2 grams". So all these numbers you are tossing around are useless. The concentration is already limited.

I'm not talking about 1 mg Tom. I'm talking about the 50 mg available in fluoride treatments, where ALL of it can be dissolved, whereas with calcium fluoride, only 16 mg of sodium fluoride can dissolve. In other words, UPTO 9.45 GRAMS of sodium fluoride could dissolve in a 30 lb. child's bloodstream, which of course means that ALL of the flouride ions would be available from a fluoride treatment (22.5 mg), whereas calcium fluoride would be limited to a level of 5.12 mg...

Boy you are dense at times...

[blueriver]

I rate the rant against fluoridation right alongside the rant against aspartame, power lines and also the health benefits of magnets in your shoes.

I guess you thought it was a good idea when they were adding mecury to vaccines also.

Even the government is now owning up to that mistake.

[FormerLurker]

Let's look at a liter of water, both naturally fluoridated, and naturally free of water but with sodium fluoride added.

A liter of water naturally free of water. Now that's some pretty strange stuff...

[TomB]

I'm not talking about 1 mg Tom. I'm talking about the 50 mg available in fluoride treatments, where ALL of it can be dissolved, whereas with calcium fluoride, only 16 mg of sodium fluoride can dissolve. In other words, UPTO 9.45 GRAMS of sodium fluoride could dissolve in a 30 lb. child's bloodstream, which of course means that ALL of the flouride ions would be available from a fluoride treatment (22.5 mg), whereas calcium fluoride would be limited to a level of 5.12 mg...

Actually, we are talking about flouridated water, and the alleged difference between "naturally" flouridated vs "artifically" flouridated water. But of course you knew that. Otherwise, why would you be comparing CaF2 and NaF?

I know it's getting harder and harder to defend your flimsy argument, but at least have the courage to stick to the topic.

So let's get back to flouridated water, as has been pointed out, whether water is naturally flouridated with CaF2 or has NaF added to the water supply, once the compounds have dissociated, there is no way to tell the difference between the two ions.

Therefore, considering many water supplies in this country have natural flouride levels around 1ppm, it is silly to say it is a poison that should be avoided at all costs. And if there were diseases that arise out of that concentration, we should see areas of the country that have naturally elevated flouride levels to have a significant increase in these diseases, but we don't.

[FormerLurker]

If you have a liter of water, and enough compound is added to it to raise the level of fluoride to 1ppm, where is all this extra coming from?

We're not talking about 1 ppm water Tom. We are talking about what the MAXIMUM CONCENTRATION IS...

Somehow you are taking these solubility numbers and assuming an indefinite supply of NaF, but that isn't the case, there is only enough NaF added to raise the level to 1ppm.

Not if there is an accident, where they release WAY more fluoride than they should. And not in the case of fluoride treatments either Tom. You are mixing apples with oranges here... We are not talking about your "optimal limit". We are talking maximum possible concentations of fluoride ions from specific compounds...

[FormerLurker]

I used to work as a dental assistant, and I can assure everyone here that there is an ongoing debate in the dental community regarding the harmfulness vs. the usefulness of fluoride. Same goes for the mercury in amalgam fillings.

You may want to see this video in relation to mercury amalgam...

How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Degeneration

This isn't a junk science, conspiracy nut, "Flat Earther" issue. It's a valid topic of debate. Dentists don't laugh at other dentists who worry about the potentially harmful effects of fluoride. They may vehemently disagree with them. But, they don't laugh at them.

Thanks for the insight. There are obviously those who would rather think that bad things will never hurt them as long as they pretend those things don't exist. That is exactly what allows something of this magnitude to occur and be widely accepted by those who should know better...