Elizabeth Smart thread, September 5, 2002-?

[cookiedough]

I'm not sandude, but it can be interpreted to mean he has had several other father figures in his life. Not the most stable environment for a child to be raised in.

[varina davis]

Cookiedough, just for the sake of debate, what if Ricci had absolutely nothing to do with the case, but had loaned or given someone the keys to the jeep prior to the disappearance of ES. Or they were stolen, as was reported. If that person alone did the deed, the LE might well have forensic evidence from this person and assumed Ricci must know about it --- even if he didn't.

I could understand Ricci, if and when he suspected someone used his vehicle for criminal purposes, wanting to clean it out so he wouldn't be linked -- considering LE knew about his past record.

Having said all that, I still do not believe Ricci is the perpetrator. I truly believe it was a "trusted" (community pillar) member of the community who bit off more than he could chew and panicked. Hopefully, the panic wasn't enough to harm ES.

[varina davis]

Moreover, it really does not seem like Ricci had nearly enough time the night of June 5 to carry out the extensive alleged kidnapping in the time frame cited.

[sandude]

I'm saying if my husband kidnapped another person's child, I would be concerned for the safety of my child.

You certainly would and perhaps Angela would to, but then again maybe not. I do think that if her brother was the man in the blue van that picked Richard up then it is likely that Angela made the call to Moul's to clear getting the Jeep off of the lot in the first place. She did mention the other night on LKL that she had called and asked about the fuel pump and that Moul had told her he had three white jeeps on the lot. I think that this is a cover story to explain why a phone call exists on the phone records from the Ricci trailer to Moul's shop on or before the 30th of May. Now it is her word against Moul's as to the contents of that conversation. Moul's records will show how many white Jeeps were actually there at the time. She will deny ever clearing the way for Richard to pick up the Jeep.

[scaredkat]

You guys are cracking me up lol lol lol its cute how much your trying to put these cities together. Its true how Salt Lake Valley has a lot of cities crammed together.

let me try and help.
http://www.utabus.com/info/long_plan/default_files/S_map3if.jpg

This will kindof show the salt lake valley alittle better even though it doesnt have the street address on it. Please note when looking at it the smarts home is on the top right hand side where the green line end. If I find a better map I will let you know.

[sandude]

Moreover, it really does not seem like Ricci had nearly enough time the night of June 5 to carry out the extensive alleged kidnapping in the time frame cited.

He did if he had an accomplice.

[sandude]

That map is OK scat. I just seem to remember Magna being farther than Kearns but it looks like they are about the same.

[varina davis]

He did if he had an accomplice.

Sandude, I would so much appreciate it if you would just once address my post in its entirely instead of in the context of just one line. thank you.

[sandude]

varina, hello, get some coffee or something. My response was to post 823 which was a one sentance comment by you.

[varina davis]

Here is an even better map, sandude: http://www.ci.west-valley.ut.us/map.html

[sandude]

If you have things that you'd like me to comment on then post them and I will respond. Probably not tonight though because I'm going to bed.

[varina davis]

You know very well that was an addition to Post 822. Thank you.

[sandude]

I'll look at 822 tomorrow and let you know. Good night.

[scaredkat]

Thanks for the comments

GET THIS-- tonight my brother came over and said he was talking to a salt lake police detective. (Weve been trying to get informantion from them not give them any) This det was on the case (good) He said those smarts are the weirdest bunch hes ever seen and that Ed has a lot of skeltons in his closet. They havent been able to get any square answers from them at all and the mk really isnt a realiable source because she was feed different senerios before she could be questions and she has been ruled out has being a helpful triable witness. That they are 85% sure that ricci did it but they dont have the proof to back it up. (sounds like me and that ***mine). This was alot of information but I believe true because my brother has away with people in getting information out of them. Also it was known that ed still owe ricci money and that he was furious because ed doesnt pay up like he should.

[scaredkat]

Thats a good map. Way to go! I was having a hard time finding one.

[Devil_Anse]

"I would imagine that she still could plead the 5th because of its precedence in US law but there are some instances where people are not allowed to use it. Could this be one of them?"

No, I don't think so. I really think she could take the Fifth if they subpoena her back to the grand jury, and then ask her questions whose answers would tend to incriminate her.

Your (excellent) point seems to be that if she used one privilege to remain silent on a question, and didn't say anything about the other privilege (5th Amend.) then wouldn't that be like acquiescing to being questioned on the matter (if, for example, she'd never had a husband in the first place.) But I think her waiver of her 5th Amendment privilege would have to be very explicit, not just implied by her failure to mention it b/c she already had the marital privilege to hide behind. Her waiver of such a big right would have to be crystal clear, and knowing, intelligent, voluntary, etc.

I think that such a waiver (of 5th Amend. privilege) is "proceeding-specific" so certainly she could take up and use the privilege in any subsequent proceeding in this case, even if she HAD explicitly waived it before.

About people not being allowed to use the 5th Amendment privilege, sometimes a parent doesn't want to testify against their child, but there's no privilege existing, so if the parent refuses to testify after being properly subpoenaed, the parent can get jailed for contempt. I am assuming a case in which the parent didn't do any criminal act. If their answering the question wouldn't tend to incriminate them, they must answer. Monica Lewinsky's mother was faced with a situation sort of like this. She was in a real quandary, which is why she suddenly decided to become "sick" and put on all those theatrics. (Her "sick" act worked, didn't it?) Monica's mom did, however, have a 5th Amendment privilege as to answering whether or not she really told Monica to pretend she broke her leg to avoid testifying.

Then there was Susan McDougal. I think she was given immunity for any criminal acts of her own as to Whitewater. This eliminated any chance of her incriminating herself so--no 5th Amendment privilege remained for her. Which is why, when she still refused to answer (to protect You-Know-Who), she was jailed for contempt.

If Angela took the 5th, in grand jury or trial or both, the prosecution wouldn't be able to say one word about it--not even a sly comment such as, "well, we don't know what they did b/c Mrs. Ricci hasn't explained that." If they made any reference at all to her claiming the 5th, they'd blow the whole trial. (Who knows, there may never be a trial on this case anyway, they certainly can't indict or try Richard Ricci now.)

[Devil_Anse]

"Why would that statement make her a bad mother?"

It isn't the statement that would make her a bad mother. The fact that her child had at least 2 dads go through his 11-year life makes some people wonder if there were even more. Introducing her child to a new "mom" or "dad" every few years, if that's what she did, would not be good parenting, IMO.

[Devil_Anse]

"now she will have to tell it all...lies included, which I'm sure she will."

Well, if she really has any key information about this case, and has to testify in any future court proceeding, all her statements on the many videotaped interviews had better agree with her testimony, or they will come back to haunt her.

[Devil_Anse]

"I could understand Ricci, if and when he suspected someone used his vehicle for criminal purposes, wanting to clean it out so he wouldn't be linked"

I could understand that too, but the better thing for him to do in that case would be to go to a lawyer (perhaps borrow Angela's Mr. Smith) and tell the lawyer of his suspicions (in confidence, attorney-client privilege), and have the lawyer take the information to the police.

[Devil_Anse]

"it really does not seem like Ricci had nearly enough time the night of June 5 to carry out an extensive alleged kidnapping in the time frame cited."

He might have had enough time, if he actually left home after the Mormon missionaries left (no later than 9 p.m., I believe), and didn't come back home till about 8 or 8:30 a.m., when he was seen by Thurber hammering on the side of Thurber's trailer. Or if he didn't start his shenanigans till about 1 or 2 a.m., that would still give him 6-7 hours.