Elizabeth Smart thread, September 5, 2002-?

[landerwy]

Good info! I will try and digest it all! Thanks.

[Devil_Anse]

"How could [Thurber] be privy to what medications Angela was or was not taking that particular night?"

Yessss...how, indeed?

"The credibility of these neighbors is somewhat in question, considering that many of them have police records."

Does Thurber, or his mother, have a police record, that you know of? If so, please provide your source. I am curious to know this, b/c I have seen absolutely nothing in the media to suggest that either of them have a police record.

"the body language of a habitual liar"

You have made a judgment of Thurber's credibility based on your observations of him talking on TV, yet you refuse to even entertain the opinions of others of Angela's credibility, based on information that has been made available about her. For example, if we believe the media, we know Angela has a conviction for check forging or uttering. This particular type of offense is red-flagged by the legal system, in laying out rules by which the credibility of testifying witnesses may be evaluated. In some jurisdictions, if a person has this type of conviction, it is deemed to be particularly suggestive of deceitfulness and lack of credibility.

Why are you so strict in judging Thurber, while you seem to defend Angela at every turn?

Thurber does not seem to be a model of either intelligence or propriety. He lives next door to Angela; apparently they knew each other and maybe lived next to each other, even before she married Richard. Maybe they even did drugs together, and socialized together. Birds of a feather flock together.

[Devil_Anse]

You're welcome, and thanks for including me in the discussion of this case.

[varina davis]

Are we to assume that they didn't even find probable cause for charges to be filed against Ricci.....let alone enough evidence to actually find him guilty?

That's a pretty safe assumption.

[stlnative]

I bet the article you are speaking of is when there was a scent picked up near a new subdivision that ended up being nothing, the dogs lost the scent the next morning as the scent was picked up late at night and they called off the tracking of it until the next morning.

[Devil_Anse]

Yes, but what about information Angela may have had which she did not gain through confidential marital communications? This might be information about collateral issues, such as where the jeep was--if she saw the jeep during the magic 8 days, for example (she denied this on TV), or whether she was the one who made that call to the auto shop which Moul said was made by "Mrs. Ricci."

There may be an expansion of the privilege to allow the prevention of disclosure by Angela of info learned by virtue of the marriage relationship btw her and Ricci (info not actually learned through his communications to her), but I don't know if that's the rule in Utah. Is it?

I see you agree with me as to Angela's possibly taking the Fifth in the grand jury--for information for which the marital privilege might not have applied.

My point in that post was, as I recall, that she could have gone into the grand jury, taken the Fifth, and left--and we the public would never be the wiser. You seem to be reminding me that she could have gone into the grand jury, claimed the marital privilege, and possibly the Fifth as well, and left--and we the public would never be the wiser. I agree with you.

Of course, now that Ricci is dead, things change, if there's ever any subpoena to Angela to testify b/f a grand jury on this matter again. Here's something from a "Rule 502," which I think is from Utah Rules of Evidence: "The non-communicating spouse to whom the confidential communication was made is presumed to be authorized, during the life of the communicating spouse, to claim the privilege on behalf of the person who made the confidential communication."

[Devil_Anse]

"Now we need to have Bella go by Bishop Dixon's house and peek in his garage and see if he has an older model blue SUV or an older model white/silver/gray/dark Honda/Nissan with 266 in the license number."

Oh, haven't you heard? They've decided he could easily have hiked the short distance between his home and Elizabeth's. After all, he IS a marathon runner!

I was never quite convinced that the doctor necessarily lived ON Tomahawk Drive. Would you be willing to tell me what street name you found in your address search?

[Devil_Anse]

Good catch--the quote from Ricci's statement about 6-6:30 a.m.

(It must be true b/c we know he would never lie!)

[trussell]

Here's something from a "Rule 502," which I think is from Utah Rules of Evidence: "The non-communicating spouse to whom the confidential communication was made is presumed to be authorized, during the life of the communicating spouse, to claim the privilege on behalf of the person who made the confidential communication."

Could you translate that into terms I can understand? I am not by any means "uneducated", but that comment has me stumped!

[Jolly Green]

I figured the perp left out the front door and had his car parked either at the entrance of Kristianna or facing north on Virginia. I think he went north on Virginia, right on Chandler, then left on Tomahawk. The doctor said in the article when he heard the scream and all the dogs in the neighborhood started barking he came out and looked up into the hills (north of Tomahawk) and saw nothing, so if he lives south of Tomahawk he would have gone out front or north of Tomahawk into his back yard.

It is also possible that the perp parked on Tomahawk near the dead end. The same down the hill, up the hill scenario to and from the Smart home would apply. The reason I tend to discount that is that the perps vehicle would be visible on the street (Tomahawk or Kristianna) for 30 minutes minimum and maybe as much as several hours if he was waiting for the lights to go out, etc. The area I identified would not be visible to anyone in the dark.

[scaredkat]

Are you from Utah?

[Devil_Anse]

Angela's the "non-communicating spouse." So Rick's the "communicating spouse." Angela is presumed to be authorized, during the LIFE of Rick, to legally say, "I claim marital privilege on behalf of Rick. So, you can't make me tell you anything, Grand Jury." She could have gone into the grand jury and gotten away with not answering their questions, saying the answers would be coming from husband Rick's confidential secrets he told her. But now that he's dead, I think she would have to tell the things he told her.

This marital privilege stuff is designed to help keep spouses and their marriages from being "torn asunder" by courts. It's supposed to bolster their marriage by giving them an excuse to not tell on each other. IOW, it's a pro-marriage law. But once one of the people in the marriage is dead, there is no more marriage to protect--so I think at that point, Angela couldn't refuse to answer court questions by invoking marital privilege.

[scaredkat]

He KNEW them? This family that missed their son's baptism on Jun 5 BECAUSE THEY WENT TO THE WRONG CHURCH!!!!


I have to comment on this because with us mormans believe it or not it happens. One person is thinking one meeting house and the other person is thinking another meeting house. Remeber this is utah you will find an LDS meeting house almost on every block or at least every three blocks. The Ricci's probably went to the one that they go to on Sundays for church services when in fact baptisms are done at the Stake Center. -- This is one story I totally and completely believe now as for the rest of it, Im really not sure. (church, you have to forgive mormans wording when we say a church it really is a meeting house that 3 wards meet at-wards are an area block of homes. about 12 to 15 wards are assigned to a Stake centers.) I hope this was helpful in understanding and if you already knew this Im sorry for going on about it.

[Jolly Green]

Are you from Utah?

I lived there for awhile - twenty years ago.

[sandude]

Thanks for checking out the neighborhood. I had a feeling the aerial photos were out of date.

[sandude]

Thanks H-E for finding the article. I wonder what Angela said to the Grand Jury?

[Devil_Anse]

"Search Dogs Picked Up Scent In Mountains"

I see that Brigette already answered you, but to add to what she said, I reread that article and it referred to the Traverse Ridge area near Draper.

If you go to her archive, go to the news articles she's archived for June, and look at June 21, the article is the third one down on the page.

[trussell]

Wish I knew how to post pictures, especially animated ones. I would post a light bulb turning on.

I appreciate your explaining that, I was drawing a blank.

[sandude]

Are we to assume that they didn't even find probable cause for charges to be filed against Ricci.....let alone enough evidence to actually find him guilty?

They are still actively investigating this crime. When they have completed their work then they will indict those who are responsible or they will release the information that they have. I think they are still hopeful they will find Elizabeth's body so they can include a capitol murder charge against those responsible.

[Bella]

Thought you'd be interested in knowing this fact from a mormon that lives 6 blocks from the family--
XXXXXXXX [1:09 AM]: the ribbons are worn, the flyers are fading and water marked, its not really talked about.