Elizabeth Smart thread, September 5, 2002-?

Hi varina is davis your last name?

Wasn't Utah in a heck of a drought about that time? Where would all this "mud" have been?

On the first week of june it was very stormy the winds blew for days. People lost a lot of trees and power lines were done. It finally started raining on june 3 and it rained thru june 4. The mountains and this problem to because of all the trees that blew over and landslides. never read this anywhere just experianced it. I remember it because being out there and searching it was very cold in the morning and wet for at least two weeks after that storm.

"Also, please be kind enough to tell me what Liz is holding in her hand in the photo in the bottom row, first from left. Thanks."--from spore-gasm It looks like a beer. There is a brand of root beer called, I think, IBC, that has bottles which look a lot like the bottle in the picture. However, since none of the other kids in the picture is lacking their drink, I haven't a clue who she was holding it for. It could be a beer, but as one who has had some experience in that field, I would say that a beer bottle's neck would be just a tad longer. But yes, it could be a beer. Mel, unregistered, Capitol Grilling "Speaking of which, did anyone ever notice the one picture of ES and her siblings sitting on a log and they all have cans of soda (at least it looks like it)...Elizabeth also has what appears to be a beer in her other hand. Now I'm not suggesting that she was drinking it, but who was she holding it for considering her family is also mormon? Look familiar, Spore? Thank you for being the mole who has been so generously taking the information from Freerepublic and spreading it around Capitol Grilling! Let's go have a beer together sometime, "bestest friend!"

Thanks for the picture reference.

Went to the site and saw the picture with Elizabeth with her hair braided in cornrows. Could be a sign of rebellion, but I think it takes some of the kick out of one's teenage rebellion when one's little sister is also allowed to put her hair in cornrows at the same time. Mary Katherine's are all cornrowed up in that picture, too, Mel.

Thank you. Very nice summary. That does help cut to the quick.

I think that ORIGINALLY the jeep was towed in to Neth's on about May 15.

I don't remember the date but I do seem to recall that the Jeep was not operational due to the fuel pump when it went into the garage.

Yes, they could have dug up a body on the 8th and then gone to return the jeep. Do you think the accomplice could have stayed calm all night with a body in his van, though?

I'm not sure that the body was in the blue van on the 8th but it is possible. I'm just trying to fit the pieces together. The Jeep was muddy and so was Rick. He could have been dirty from whatever his work assignment was that day. I'm not sure he even worked on the 8th but Angela insinuated that he did on LKL for whatever that's worth. It would be nice if the police would release his timeline. How do they expect us internet sleuths to do our job. He could have been muddy because the Jeep got stuck in the mud somewhere and he had to dig it out. Perhaps the posthole digger was the only tool he had available to him to accomplish this task. Maybe he was bringing a living breathing Elizabeth back from some remote cabin when this occurred or perhaps she was already wrapped in plastic by that time.

We know that LE was not satisfied with his alibi. That could indicate that they saw a window of time where he could have put the additional miles on the Jeep. That window wouldn't have to have been on the 8th though. It could also mean that his timeline showed no holes in it but that they were unsatisfied that he had no knowledge of the Jeeps whereabouts.

Where was the Jeep hidden during the time in question? That is the central question because Elizabeth was probably held and possibly murdered at that same location. I've always thought that it was in town someplace but that might not be the case. All we know is that it was out of sight during the week it was absent from Moul's garage.

I do think that we can safely assume that the Jeep was used to transport Elizabeth on the night of the crime. Angela's claim that somebody stole the Jeep and returned it a week later and that it had nothing to do with the crime is either a lie or pure fantasy. Who steals a vehicle and returns it a week later? Not a common auto thief. Somebody who worked at Moul's might take it four wheeling with Neth's approval, maybe even Neth himself. Of course they would have returned it the next morning in case the Ricci's came by to check on it. Moul has employees and he was not the only witness to the Jeep being missing from his lot. If somebody had it out for a week they would have needed to park it somewhere. It would be an easy matter for LE to discover this by talking with neighbors of Neth and his employees. I could buy an employee joyride if it had only been gone one night but not for a whole week. The Ricci's never once suggested that anyone from the shop had the Jeep. If I were them and I knew nothing of my vehicles whereabouts and found out that it had another 1000 miles on it I would be livid with my mechanic. Instead we get this lame story about some stolen keys.

Let me say a few things about the missing keys scenario. There are a few gaping holes here. How did the key thief know where to find the Jeep unless he knew the Ricci's well enough to be privy to that information. He would have also needed to know that the vehicle was drivable. Could he have used the Jeep in the commission of some other crime? Rick's story would have been a lot different in that case. He wouldn't have been quiet about what he knew. Could the abduction been carried out by some friend of the Ricci's without Rick’s involvement? That would be highly unlikely because the perp apparently had a key or knew where to find one and he knew where Elizabeth's room was. You could come up with some tortured explanations for some of these things but the fact that Richard was unwilling to clear up the matters concerning the Jeep are very damning.

Do you think the accomplice could have stayed calm all night with a body in his van, though? Why not just go on and re-bury the body after turning in the jeep? Night would be a better time for that anyway.

Her body may have been in a garage, basement, who knows. It would be difficult to do at night and someone may still observe you only you wouldn't know it. Besides the color of his vehicle and the resemblance to Angela there are a couple of other things that make him interesting. He apparently abandoned his pit after being discovered and he has never come forward to clear this matter up.

Got to get back to work now. See you guys later today.

with Elizabeth with her hair braided in cornrows.

If thats a sign of rebellion, Im in trouble too. We do it all the time and our kids too, maybe us utahn are different I didnt think so, we just like to have fun. We also do it when we go beachin, it looks like what they are doing. It helps with kids hair, not having to mess with. Just wash and go.

When I was assistant camp director in my ward, the girls with long hair would all braid their hair in cornrows. It was a matter of convenience for them. Me? I'd just wear a hat the whole week...

Here is something I came across in reading, I think you will find it interesting and might makes think a little on the what if.

http://www.sltrib.com/2002/mar/03202002/utah/utah.htm

the 1996 murder of Motel 6 clerk Matthew John Whicker in Woods Cross. He was released. (Tom Smart/The Associated Press)
BY STEPHEN HUNT
THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

FARMINGTON -- After five years of silence, Todd Jeremy Rettenberger admitted Tuesday he acted as lookout and getaway driver the night a Motel 6 clerk was robbed and murdered in Woods Cross.
Rettenberger, 23, also promised to testify against his two alleged accomplices -- a major break for prosecutors.
Three months ago, Rettenberger had pleaded guilty to manslaughter, but steadfastly refused to admit to any part in the Oct. 29, 1996, slaying. On Tuesday, during a tearful hourlong sentencing hearing, Rettenberger took full responsibility for his part in the murder of Matthew John Whicker, 30.
"I should have told the truth a long time ago," Rettenberger told 2nd District Judge Jon Memmott. "All I can do is say I'm sorry and be a better person."
Rettenberger's case was delayed by a pre-trial appeal to the Utah Supreme Court, which two years ago threw out his alleged confession to police as coerced. Meanwhile, prosecutors have charged four other men as murder accomplices -- but three of those cases were dismissed for lack of evidence.
Memmott accepted Rettenberger's admissions and immediately released him, saying: "You have paid a price."
Charged and arrested when he was 18 years old, Rettenberger has spent the past five years in the Davis County Jail.
He will be on probation for the next 36 months while he completes 100 hours of community service -- helping handicapped children and speaking to high school students about the pitfalls of crime.
Rettenberger named David J. Valken-Leduc, 23, as the triggerman. Valken-Leduc was charged with Whicker's murder last November after Rettenberger's defense team discovered his fingerprint had been lifted from a wall in the motel lobby. A photo of the fingerprint had lain unexamined in the police file.
While acting as lookout, Rettenberger said he saw Whicker fighting with Valken-Leduc, who struck the clerk in the head with the butt of his revolver. Moments later, as Rettenberger was running back to his car, he heard shots.
Rettenberger said Valken-Leduc later told him: "We didn't 'gat' what we wanted -- I had to gat the guy."
Whicker was shot multiple times. Rettenberger said he received $50; $491 was missing from the till.
Rettenberger said Elliot Rashad Harper, 22, also carried a handgun into the motel lobby. Harper is in the Salt Lake County Jail on a drug paraphernalia conviction, Davis County prosecutors said, adding they will charge him with murder by week's end.
Rettenberger called upon Harper and Valken-Leduc to admit their guilt. "We've hurt the Whickers so much," Rettenberger said. "We need to step up and end the pain."
Tuesday's surprise sentencing followed months of talks with prosecutors, but was precipitated by a meeting Friday -- at Rettenberger's request -- between himself and Whicker's family.
"Emotionally, [Rettenberger] has just been distraught," said defense attorney Todd Utzinger. "He needed a release. He was hoping [Whicker's family] would forgive him, but he was not expecting it."
In court Tuesday, the victim's father, Ben Whicker told Rettenberger: "I forgive you. . . . Hang in there and make sure you're an asset to the society from now on."
Rea Whicker said she was grateful to learn the details of her son's death. "John fought his way into this life," she said. "And now we know he fought his way out."
Katrina Whicker said Rettenberger and his friends ruined her dream of being a wife and a stay-at-home mom. She said her goal now is to teach her son, 10, and daughter, 7, to take responsibility for their actions and be forgiving.
Whicker said her daughter had this message for Rettenberger: "My heart hurts because you killed my dad. I miss him very much, but I forgive you." Her son merely wanted to know if Rettenberger had pulled the trigger. "I said he didn't, and he said, 'OK,' " said Katrina Whicker.
In a 10-page affidavit, which attorney Utzinger read to the court, Rettenberger said Valken-Leduc and Harper started talking about robbing a business to get money for rent two weeks before Whicker died.
Rettenberger said he needed money to pay a misdemeanor fine.
Rettenberger agreed to drive. He also suggested robbing the Motel 6, because it was close to the freeway.
Following Rettenberger's arrest, Harper turned up in in jail on an unrelated matter and told Rettenberger: "You know better than to say anything [about the homicide case]." Rettenberger said he inferred he was to "take all the blame . . . and that I would be considered a 'snitch' if I told about their involvement."
Utzinger said Rettenberger now has some adjusting to do. "My goal to keep him away from everybody and let him decompress for awhile," Utzinger said. "He's five years behind schedule in his life."

(Please note he was released on Mar. 20, 2002)(what about the other two?, most likely are out too.)

Could this guy be the one in the sketch?

Also did nature play apart of this, meaning the tornado!, they just had down there? Will/has it uncovered what was burried? Time will tell has the manti residents clean up.

1.In response to the allegation that defendant has never disputed the allegation that defendant and Torquemada are one and the same, defendant Anse answers as follows: Defendant Anse and Torquemada are not one and the same.

2. Defendant Anse admits that it makes no difference.

(However, feel free to picture me in one of those scarlet-colored get-ups.)

Do you think it's a beer in Elizabeth's hand in that picture? If so, why on earth would someone from the family (surely that's who took the photo) take a picture of one of the family's children holding someone's beer?

Thanks for your answer. I am answering your post on Brigette's Sept. 9--? thread b/c I assume this thread will be archived or whatever soon, and I guess that is where we're supposed to go.

Here is a side note to keep in mind.

Bret M Edmunds disappeared and reappeared in WV hospital last seen in Utah. WV why there? of course it could have been anywhere BUT, Did you know there is a missing girl from there her name is Elizabeth Burd.

Elizabeth burd is related to Ramsey's Jon bona ramsey

When is coincidents not a coincident? When does it change from coincident to a reality that there is a lead her.(maybe not to E Smart ooooorrrrr is there?)

I dont think edmunds has anything to do with it, but he knows something and I think he was trying to say something with saying it.

I am also looking at connections with other girls missing in utah.
Kiplyn Davis 16 missing 5-2-95 red hair blue eyes (this case was never looked into.) she never came home from school.

Beverly Joanne Dix 17 m2-28-00 west valley was at school disappeared never got home. brown hair brown eyes 5'4

Trisha ann Autry 15 m6-2000 body found near logan buried 10 feet down. found body on 5-01 (Lynn Nielson suspect)

Crystal Villarreal 17 m1-6-01 brown hair brown eyes 5'2. statement say last seen with male companion, no male companion according to family.

Christina Pimentel 17 m10-18-01 Logan,listed as a runaway. brown hair brown eyes 5'4 with male friend, no male friend missing as a runaway.

Elizabeth Smart 14 m6-5-02 blond hair blue eyes. 5'6
Elizabeth Weight 16 m6-18-02 blond hair blue eyes.

All of these other girls were written off from the police and not investigated. This is really what started the saying "What about the other girls" but once again they were over looked by people talking about missings in other states. Sometimes media gets out of focus. They ment the utah girls that have been missing recently and not investigated.

If you look at these girls there are some simularities:
1- age (they are all older girls)
2- date missing except for 95, we have two in 2000. two in 2001 and one in 2002 is there going to be a second one in 2002 or is this the Weight girl? (I cant find anything on her just know it was june 18 2002.)
3- simularities with the girls
3- the two in 2001 look alike, two in 2002 are the same.
4- believe it was Christina that disappeared from her bedroom at night, police said she ranaway, family said she didnt. Police never check her room came into the house or even tried to investigate, nothing was missing from there.
5-?

Hi varina is davis your last name?

Why do you ask?

Varina, I thought that was kind of touching when Scaredkat asked you that, since obviously no one on here is using his real name.

I am sure Scaredkat meant no harm, and probably did not expect an answer. Just my 2 cents.

tom's initial alibi for the night of june 4th was that he was taking photos at a sporting event, came home about 11pm, took a sleeping pill, woke to the phone call from ed at 3:30am. at this time it's my understanding that tom was the photo editor, not a staff photographer.

Why do think I took offense? I was just curious, thought it might be her surname or something.