Posted on 07/29/2002 10:08:58 PM PDT by Jolly Green
Subject: Trafficking in Child Brides, as we speak Date: Jul 11 22:46 Author:Nightingale Mail Address:
Just saw this item on our local news. Didn't get names or many specifics. This is a highly rated news program with well known, prize winning journalists, so I have confidence in the source.
I live in British Columbia (BC), Canada (Pacific west coast.) There's a community called Bountiful (bleck!) about 12 hrs drive from here that is a "colony" of "Mormon fundamentalists". It has existed since 1947 and has 800 members. Girls receive a maximum of a Grade 9 education. The recent head of the colony has 30 wives and 100 children. (He has just been "dethroned".)
Two former plural wives gave tonight's (brief) interview describing their experiences and concerns for the young girls in the colony now and those who may be forced to join. One woman was a 4th wife, in her 8th pregnancy, when she left, because she said she was afraid her children were being or would be sexually abused. She said "there are no sexual boundaries" in the colony. The child she was trying to protect was THREE YEARS OLD.
The women both spoke of their fear of the current practice of blood atonement "for disobedience". They stated that if a girl speaks out, she will be "sacrificed" to make the other girls "afraid to speak."
As the interview progressed, shots were shown of the leader and all his wives and children. The young girls were singing "My daddy is the best man in the world" in high, sweet voices, while the old man looked on, with women aligned beside and behind him. It was SICKSICKSICKSICKSICKSICKSICK.
The more vocal former plural wife said "you have to learn when abuse is abuse" (because this is the only "norm" they know.)
As is often the case, the women may not stand up for themselves but they MAY try and protect their children, but only when things become really really bad.
Apparently, some girls become plural wives at ages 13/14. The interviewee said there is a "well known route for trafficking in child brides between Utah and Bountiful" (BC).
There is a documentary being prepared about this, slated to be aired in the fall.
BUT, MEANWHILE, how is this allowed to continue? How can this be "well known" and not be stopped? (PLEASE don't tell me it's about "religious freedom".)
Ironically, on the same newscast, there was a blurb about some children back East being apprehended by Social Services because their parents spank them (also a fundamentalist religious group.) But give me a break - abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse. Why are these girls not being "rescued"? And how can you get potential child brides across the border??? (Honestly, I need passports and a notarized letter to take my brother's kids across the line and my little niece looks exactly like me - we're obviously related.)
All these things that make you wonder which way is up.
Oh, no, it's going to be another sleepless night - I can feel it....
But what say you???? Would you try and do something???? I was thinking of calling the news station and getting the names of the women who were interviewed. I don't really know why, to see if they need any help???
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Subject: Re: Trafficking in Child Brides, as we speak Date: Jul 11 23:27 Author:linda walker Mail Address:
These are the activists in Canada who are speaking in British Columbia. There are web sites devoted to exposing these crimes and it is a small group of people so your help would be more than welcome. Grandpa Jim posts here and helps with the Ruby site. If you want to help it would be easy to link up to do so. There are people who need rescuing in Canada and Debbie is connected with civil authorites there trying to do something. I can give you a list of emails if you write me privately or you can go to my site or rubys and offer help.
If you see any news stories post them here for us please.
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Subject: Thanks for the info, Linda Date: Jul 11 23:35 Author:Nightingale Mail Address:
I'll go to those sites you mention and become more informed.
Our newspapers are on strike - too bad or there would likely be a story printed. It's a giant media conglomerate owning the TV station and the papers, so you get the same stories in each. I can't find anything on the TV station's website about it - it wasn't a feature news item tonight.
I read all the papers and watch several newscasts a day but have NEVER heard of this before. I'd definitely like to help. Will keep eyes and ears open and will post about anything else that may come up.
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Subject: These polygamists no one loves! Date: Jul 12 00:13 Author:WillyChee
A pretty good case can be made that Brother Joseph came about the concept of poly as a way to legitimatize getting into the pants of a wide range of women with "His Father's Blessing" As the Saints moved West many women discovered the advantages of having the help sister wives provided. When the Church felt compelled to renounce the open practice of polygamy, groups since known as Mormon Fundamentalists or "Fundies" continied to support the practice of polygamous marriage in this lifetime, while the SL, Brighamite Church continued to teach it was required to reach the highest levels of exhalutation and continues poly weddings in it's Temples although only if the first spouse is deceased! The Fundies continued to hold their women in a very unliberated state, convincing most that their salvation as individuals rests on how well they please their earthly husbands, who they, the women would need to pull them through the curtain separating them from salvation and into the next world. It is, and contimues to be a situation ripe for abuse. Dear Gordon B Hinkley has attested on national television that these Fundies don't exist. His discernment has clearly failed him again.
Viewed in the 1800's as one of America's twin relics of barbarism along with Slavery, polygamy is illegal and prosecutable in every state and territory of the United States and in Canada, except for British Columbia, where it is neither condoned nor prohibited.
As strange as it may seem, women often still choose polygyny as a lifestyle. Where it is not religious based and not controlled by patriarchy, but represents an effort of team work in a team approach to marriage, many still prefer it. When viewed without bias, there can be some strong reasons why women see it working in their advantage. - (It has even been presented to the National Organization of Women in Utah as something it should embrace!) It needs be stated though, that most of these recent practitioners abhor and enthusiastically condemn the abuse of women and children that the religious groups foster equally as much, if not more than others such as yourself. Not only do these abusive groups force the abuse of women and children, but they also give the impression that anyone choosing polygyny must be equally errant.
Poly is not the culprit any more than the large number of people in monagamous relationships who participate in S&M and Bondage make it an inheritanly bad relationship. Just by numbers alone, more are negatively impacted by these less than common accepted or tolerated monagamous relationships that have ever been in poly!
Perhaps, the best solution would be to legalize poly and give the wives and children the same open protection of the law that is now afforded to relationships that don't have to be hidden. When poly has survived, I feel it will continue to survive and rather than trying to eliminate it, regulating it might be preferred!
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Subject: We aren't talking about women who choose polygyny so someone will help with the dishes. Date: Jul 12 01:40 Author:GrandpaJim Mail Address:
The number of informed freely consenting adult women who enter into polygamy is small. The main body of pligs are people who raise their daughters to expect that they will have to forgo any feelings they develop for young guys their own age. They will be assigned a polgyamous husband when they become sexually mature. They are kept ignorant, uneducated, isolated, and fearful of the outside world. All this is to keep them under control so that they will meekly submit to their religious leaders when they are assigned husbands. Girls who resist are disciplined, often shipped off to a different polygamous community, locked up and beaten for disobedience. Their 'marriages' are loveless and completely abusive.
I don't doubt that a few women consciously choose polygamy for the reasons you stated. While numbers are impossible to attain due to the secrecy, I'd bet there aren't a thousand such polygamous women in the country. The polgyamous socities that raise their children into the 'principle' have tens of thousands of people. They are growing at a high rate due to the forced breeding they subject their women to. If they aren't dealt with soon in Utah they will be the dominat force in the state.
I would agree with you on one point though, it wouldn't be necessary to prosecute anyone for polygamy if the existing laws against rape, statutory, incest, white slavery, interstate-international trafficking in girls for sexual purposes, welfare fraud, tax evasion, and bribery were enforced.
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Subject: Re: These polygamists no one loves! Date: Jul 12 13:59 Author:Mary Mail Address:
Unfortunately, legalizing polygamy is not the answer. Legalizing polygamy would give men permission to forsake their responsibilities to the raising of the children they father. Enough of that attitude already exists in society. When women choose polygamy as an alternative type marriage claiming that the other women assist them in raising children and provide companionship, they reject men as valid partners and reduce them to sperm donors. Men have a more vital role in the raising of children than just impregnating a woman. Real men understand the role they play and step up to the responsibilities and commitment that being a father demands. Polygamy is emotionally abusive to women and the men that find polygamy attractive are incapable of true intimacy and avoid commitment and responsibility. The problems with monogamy and polygamy are rooted in the immaturity of the partners that are not committed to the full nuturing and developmental growth of their children.
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Subject: makes you wonder if elizabeth smart is there (nt) Date: Jul 12 00:27 Author:biblethumper
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Subject: makes you wonder if elizabeth smart is there (nt) Date: Jul 12 00:27 Author:biblethumper Mail Address:
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Subject: Website link, and a little info Date: Jul 12 01:23 Author:GrandpaJim Mail Address:
http://helpthechildbrides.com
I don't have much to do with the website any more. Another guy is running that. There are links to other sites as well.
The colony in British Columbia is affiliated with the FLDS church group in Colorado City AZ/Hildale UT. They trade girls across the border. Often if a girl starts to show signs that she may be rebelling against the idea of being assigned a husband they will send her across the border where she doesn't have any support network built up.
When I got involved with this, I assumed that if the proper authorities were made aware that wholesale trafficking in young girls was taking place right here in North America, that they would be suitably outraged and would take measures to enforce existing law, thereby putting an end to it. I have found that my view was very naive. Response ranges from the FBI claiming it doesn't have jurisdiction (white slavery across state and international borders? Hello) to the local sheriff, DA, Child protective people who are either frightened of the power FLDS weilds or are simply paid off.
There have been girls who escaped from a forced marriage and the local officials have returned them to their parents, who are members of the polygamous group and they are promptly married off. The more I see of this the more I am persuaded that local officials in Utah, and to some extent in Arizona, are acting on behalf of the Pligs. This corruption seems to extend right to the highest levels of government.
Your government in BC has been made aware of this situation. Complaints have been filed with the BC government as well as the RCMP. They seem as impotent as our own FBI. The simple fact is that NOBODY on either side of the border is going to mess with these folks. I can't explain why, but that is the way it is. The pligs have a lot of power and money.
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Subject: All poly are not the same. Date: Jul 12 01:46 Author:WillyChee Mail Address:
Because of the emphasis on religion the poligamous cults in Utah have varied leadership and stick pretty much to themselves, without exchange between the groups. The Hillsdale - Colorado City - Short Creek group is know as the Johnson group, whereas the Lebarons and Alred groups are found further north in Central Utah. Provo has an estimated 30,000 people adhering to poly, but it is really impossible to police when it is illegal.
When gay men and lesbian women can wed eachother and adopt children, legalizing adults to choose how they want to be married does not seem out of reach. Then perhaps the secrecy would vanish and outsiders might have better access to prevent abuse.
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Subject: I can't agree with comparisons of pligs and gays. Date: Jul 12 16:13 Author:Cheryl Mail Address:
Gay people are part of the American mainstream community. They are overall a productive, educated group of citizens. Those gays who choose to rear children tend to be sensitive and giving individuals who take the responsibility seriously. I have never heard of gays overtly trying to indoctrinate children to be gay. Most experts think such a thing wouldn't work if someone did try it.
Polygamists live with a cult attitude, isolated from the mainstream. Their children are frequently deprived of education and normal associations with mainstream America. Polygamists exert heavy cult control on their children to look, speak, act, and think within cult limits. They force children to undergo concerted indoctrination and mind control. Those children are like prisoners, unable to choose for themselves or find their way out of bondage and into normal society.
I grew up with polygamists in my own family. My parents harbored a polyg prophet and some wives and children in our house and in trailers in the yard. I know what I'm talking about. I was head strong and lucky or I may not have escaped.
I know many gays here in the SF Bay Area where I live. They are not cultists. I've never heard of a gay religious cult. Have you?
Being gay is a fact of biology. Being a polyg is a matter of repressive indoctrination and some personal choice at least for the adults.
I say don't leagalize polygamy. And if people commit incest, abuse, tax evasion, or welfare fraud, prosecute! And then, also prosecute the polygamists if that's why they're doing those other anti-social activities.
By the way, gays aren't known for any of the above law breaking.
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Subject: Official inaction Date: Jul 12 02:18 Author:Nightingale Mail Address:
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the official inaction but I am. And also at the arbitrary way situations are handled.
In my own community a few months ago, SEVEN children in a good foster home were apprehended by the social services ministry because the oldest boy and the foster father shoved each other. The ministry said they had to "prevent possible abuse." The kids were begging to go back. Maybe there was more to it than what we were told but in cases like that, they seem to move quickly enough to prevent and protect, at least, that's their story. Other kids I know were in danger of being apprehended into "care" when their mom had to go into hospital. (I had to move in with them for a week to allow them to stay at home; in their case, there was no abuse, no hardship, no danger, with the oldest child 17, theoretically old enough to cope with the younger kids). So it's hard to imagine that the officials could let Bountiful go on without challenge. But obviously they do.
And, yes, my concern is for the girls who are forced into these marriages and the children who may be in danger from a lack of "sexual boundaries".
Thanks for the info, GrandpaJim - I'm definitely going to read up on the situation.
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The website for the TV news station (BCTV) is:
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/globaltv/
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Subject: Did you not hear GBH??
Date: Jul 25 11:20 Author:Ray A
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ubject: Re: Trafficking in Child Brides, as we speak Date: Jul 25 13:20 Author:x-rs-pres Mail Address:
You should definately do something, young girls should not be exposed to this type of abuse, I am a former relief society president and member for 20 years, I live in Ontario. I thought that stuff was only in the movies. You should call the police every week and keep asking them waht will be done to help these poor youg girls that are being forced to prostitute themselves to an old man.....yes, call your local TV and radio and paper, get them involved...do something!! If I lived there I would join forces with you and we would put an end to it. One of the reasons I got out was because I have 3 daughters and I never want them to go through the stifled life I did. They are free to be thewmselves and think for themselves, no men will tell them how/what to think !! Good luck!!
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Subject: People like Linda Walker have dedicated their lives to rescuing these innocent young women... Date: Jul 25 13:42 Author:dm Mail Address
: There are many people quite dedicated to changing this appalling social condition in America. Hopefully, with 80,000+ hits a day on just this web page, someone with an ounce of compassion and a warrior's spirit and the authority to get something done will take up the challenge and start making a difference. The more I look into it, the more problematic it becomes, though. The fundys are VERY powerful, and their corporations are inextricably woven into the ecomony of the western United States. I am beginning to realize that the corporations owned by fundys also have extremely strong economic ties to the corporations owned by mainstream Mormon owned corporations. I am beginning to wonder if we have ANY police or politicians with the moral fortitude, or courage to shut these fundamentalist a$$holes down.
You totally miss the point - intentionally I'm sure. The "some people" you refer to don't care whether it is a Mr. Big, a Mr. Smart or a Mr. Ricci. We believe the case will be solved by facts, rather than sophomoric theories of the kind you throw out. Theories that even you can't provide a modicum of evidence to support. You have been repeatedly asked to defend your theories. You don't even try, because you can't. Most of us here would support your Mr. Big theory if you had any evidence.
Time flies when you're having fun :-)
Age is just a number.
You're in the prime of your life.
Those were not my OPINIONS, Jolly.
And there is only a 5 ft. handle on either type of Post Hole Digger. So you would be capabale of digging only a 3 ft hole...or jump into the hole to continue !!!!
I would have to use either post hole digger to dig a hole big enough to believe a theory that Ricci could have the time to do it all and get back home...using a post hole digger to dig a grave ! LOL !
Yep !! or digging fences, they are good for that.
Hahahaha !! It still works, and I'm sure you do too !!
Unfortunately the shortcomings of the post hole digger could be more than compensated for by the machetti. Can't imagine why you would need a machetti to dig fence holes.
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