Posted on 03/22/2002 4:04:11 PM PST by Wordsmith
Ouch! Please, Orthodox Liturgy! Thanks.
Yes, in your neck of the woods, you might have to travel to Dallas or Houston to find an Orthodox Church. Gee, it really doesn't look that far on this here map! ;-)
All things considered, Constantine's greatest contribution to the Christian Church is that he got the pagan Romans to quit killing them as part of their official policy. A serious consideration of his personal history will invariably result in one's questioning Constantine's dedication to the Christian faith.
Unfortunately, Byzantium is remembered in the West for those Emporers who seemed to know Christ only in passing. If anything, Byzantium serves as an excellent reminder that blending Church and State tends to drag the Church down more than it raises the State!
Wow! I didn't know that Orthodox gave communion to infants! Has that always been the practice? Pre-1054? In Catholicism, the child reaches the age of reason (7) or second grade, goes to First Penance (Confession) and shortly after, receives First Holy Communion. In fact, my son will make his on May 4. I'll try to find out when that started and get back to you.
Regarding the unleavened bread, that is new to me as well. I can see why you would use unleavened bread, I'll see if I can find out why/if the RCC doesn't and when/if that changed.
Good night!
I think you told me once that you got after Archdiocesan HQ after some of the "root causes" stuff they published in the Word. If so, thank you - very much.
I'm a convert, so I still don't quite "get" the sympathy in our Archdiocese for causes like the Palestinians. I understand in my head where some of the feelings are coming from, but my "default" is to not be sympathetic for the Islamic run states.
I realize that no minds will be changed in such a thread as this but I thought some of the more ardent Roman Catholics on FR might be able to give the most direct explanation for that difference between our faiths.
Sounds like East Tennesse 60 years ago when I was growing up here (actually a gleam in Daddy's eye - I am only 51)
And as a way of introduction, I was raised a Baptist.
I do have a tough time defending him, unfortunately. "Equal to the Apostles" at times sticks in my throat, God forgive. I've made the argument that he is revered primarily for the role he played in making the world safe for Christianity to thrive, but his personal story is not always uplifting.
I think God wants me to work on this issue. We may be relocating to Colorado Springs soon, and if we do we'll end up attending SS. Constantine and Helene Church! :)
According to Whelton, the practice changed in the West in the 12th Century. That would put it in the Century after the Schism.
Regarding the unleavened bread, that is new to me as well.
Be careful with the terminology! Unleavened means without yeast, as is used in the Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox use leavened, or raised, bread.
On the communion issue, the way I've been taught is that we don't want to deny our children the opportunity to be with Our Lord. If they can be Baptized, they can receive communion. One of the sweetest sights at an Orthodox Liturgy is all of the little ones going up for communion, including moms (or dads sometimes!) carrying up infants. Luckily, there's no chewing involved. Our communion is from the chalice, bread and wine intermingled. So the babes get a speck of wine-soaked bread on their tongues. God Bless.
Well, actually, I think I do, at least a little. Simply put, the Jerusalem Patriarchate has been somewhat remote from the Arab Christians in the Middle East. That fact probably inclines the Antiochian Church a little more toward Palestinian sympathies than one would expect.
But, before anyone accuses me of casting stones from my own glass house, let me acknowledge that similar problems have arisen between the Serbs, the Bulgars, and the Romanians!
There's a book called "From the Holy Mountain" by William Dalrymple that's on my reading list. The account of a non-Orthodox journalist who retraces the route across the Middle East of an ancient Athonite pilgrim. Lots of stories about what the day to day life is like for the Orthodox of the region. There's so few of them left, I pray they don't die out or migrate entirely.
I did think it was funny though to hear that the Patriarch of Jerusalem owns the property that the Israeli Knesset building is located on.
But, before anyone accuses me of casting stones from my own glass house, let me acknowledge that similar problems have arisen between the Serbs, the Bulgars, and the Romanians!
This is what I don't understand about Orthodoxy - I know you are in communion with one another, but the differences and disagreements are pretty tough sometimes, I think. Wouldn't it be much easier to have a "point man"? I know you have the Patriarch that is "First Among Equals" (Alexii?) but that doesn't seem to help much. Don't get all over me, I'm not debating, just asking questions. On the other hand, I guess the Orthodox deal much more with nationality differences?
(1) Both leavened and unleavened bread were used in the pre-Schism Church in different locales.
(2) In the East the tradition is to consume the Lord's Body and Blood in toto at one Divine Liturgy offered on Sunday. There is no reservation of the Blessed Sacrament for adoration outside the context of the Divine Liturgy. In the West we celebrate Mass at any hour of the day (and sometimes night) and reserve the Blessed Sacrament for adoration. Unleavened bread keeps better under the circumstances of this praxis.
(3) The Lord celebrated the first Divine Liturgy during the Jewish Pasch. As an obedient Jew he was obliged to use unleavened bread. Therefore the Western usage is Scripturally sound. Inasmuch as we are no longer bound by the strictures of Jewish Law, the Eastern usage is also Scripturally sound.
Re: Communion of infants
(1) It is the common practice in the East to combine Baptism, First Communion and Chrismation (what we call Confirmation) simultaneously. This is a doctrinally sound practice and is not disputed by Westerners. Catholics of the Byzantine Rite freely practice this tripartite initiation of infants into the Sacraments or Mysteries.
(2) In the West it is felt that it is appropriate for a child to be educated about the nature of the Blessed Sacrament before partaking of it. This stricture is purely canonical and not doctrinal.
(3) No traditional Catholic theologian has a theological quarrel with the Eastern tradition in this instance.
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