Orthodoxy and Parallel Monologues

First Things ^ | March 2002 | Richard John Neuhaus

[Wordsmith]

I agree that the Orthodox is more Eastern, meaning more contemplative and non-conceptual, but that's a generalization and I've found quite a bit of the contemplative tradition even in the Old South.

Thanks for the reply, to be honest my "Old South" knowledge is limited to Faulkner and that's about it. I think this is definitely a key part of the difference in spirituality. Its one reason that the Orthodox are particularly concerned about changes to the Roman Catholic mass. We're probably much more concerned about the spiritual disposition of worship in general than any of the more legalistic questions. Where's the heart at when we're praying?

I'm trying to learn more about the prayer traditions of Catholicism, especially pre-Schism. After all, we consider pre-Schism Roman Catholics to have been Orthodox. St. Patrick is recognized as an Orthodox saint, my youngest son is named after St. Aidan of Lindisfarne. Just like there's an Eastern Rite in Catholicism, there's a Western Rite in Orthodoxy. I've never seen it performed, but I'd love to.

[Wordsmith]

“We’ve been waiting a thousand years for a pope to say what he is saying. Now this Pope has said it, and we act as though nothing has happened.”

Amazing, isn't it? I was reading lately about how younger Orthodox Athonite monks were distrustful of the Pope's gesture, but many of the older, wiser monks thought we needed to listen to what he had to say.

It wouldn't be easy, but I think the dialogue could happen. I'm pretty convinced that a key part of the dialogue needs to happen in America. After the ugliness of the Greek protests to the papal visit there, I was struck by how much national grudges factor in. This just isn't the case here in the States. Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic leadership in America isn't on the same page as the Pope, it seems. They seem more interested in going the other way, away from the traditionalism that Orthodoxy represents and towards progressivism. Perhaps the coming shakeup in RCC leadership in the States will bring to the front leaders more interested in the Orthodox.

Thanks for posting! God Bless.

[Wordsmith]

Thanks allend, I'll have to see what I can find on the Orthodox side on this issue. I've never really looked at in depth. Probably won't hear from me until tomorrow, though.

[don-o]

I've found quite a bit of the contemplative tradition even in the Old South. IMHO, I would be confortable in either, but the RCC is the one that allows me the most community here.

There are a bunch of Orthodox community in the South. Both old and new.

I garanadamtee it..

Where your location at?

[saradippity]

Great article count me in but right now pretty infrequently since I think the most important issue at this time is the frontal attack on the Church. Those inside have allowed and maybe encouraged it to happen but doggone I am fighting mad. Join us on those threads some time you always contribute a lot that is really food for thought.

[Wordsmith]

Thanks sara d - I agree that you have a lot on your plate. I popped in on the Peggy Noonan thread today some, thought she nailed the issue pretty clear. I think that the traditionalist Catholics can find some support - moral and otherwise - among the Orthodox in their struggle. Our prayers are certainly with you.

[Wordsmith]

bump

[american colleen]

After all, we consider pre-Schism Roman Catholics to have been Orthodox.

WHOA!

I thought WE considered pre-schism Orthodox to have been Roman Catholics! ;-)

[Wordsmith]

"He's my saint!"

"No, he's MY saint!"

"You can't have him, give him back!!"

:-)

We were once one big happy, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." Sigh.

[FormerLib]

From personal experience, I can tell you that the authenticity of our Orthodoxy increasingly is being questioned, both from abroad and here as well.

Hasn't it always been? Particularly from those who despise everything it stands for?

I enjoy reading First Things, except when Fr. Neuhaus writes about the Orthodox, oh surprise, surprise!

Yes, the Uniate Churches will always be a problem between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. From the Orthodox perspective, the Uniate Churches are Orthodox in all respects (the Liturgy, the leavened bread, recieving the bread and wine together, married clergy, the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, original sin and on and on) except for the recognition of the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. What a tactic admission that accepting the Pope as if he were Peter himself is all that keeps us apart!

One thing that I just comment on, I believe. In regards to the Orthodox surrendering property that once belonged to the Roman Catholics, I believe that they should do so. Yes, I know that very often such property was taken from the Orthodox by force of arms and the Eastern Churches view the current situation as their having recieved their rightful property returned. However, the fact that it was the Godless Communist states that gave the property back to the Orthodox forever taints that property. I have little doubt that we shall never see that property again if we return it to Rome, knowing that it is rightfully ours. However, the Orthodox are in posession of twice stolen goods, and that should be unacceptable to any true believer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Well, that's my opinion anyway!

[FormerLib]

Here's a question to research, at what point did one Church change the rules and start using unleavened bread?

[FormerLib]

We were once one big happy, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

And I believe that we will all have to answer for the fact that we are no longer One!

[Wordsmith]

Pre-Schism?

[Wordsmith]

And I believe that we will all have to answer for the fact that we are no longer One!

Indeed. To him who has been given much...

Lord have mercy.

[FormerLib]

?You here in the West just do not understand our situation.?

After September 11th, I believe that a few people in the West are starting to appreciate what the Orthdox have known for many centuries. Once the West has been sufficiently rebloodied by Islam, they might have a chance to begin to understand.

[FormerLib]

Pre-Schism?

Yes. Both East and West used leavened bread for the first 800 years of the Church's existence. Then one side changed and the other didn't. Similarly, both sides gave communion to infants but one side changed that in the 12th Century.

Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Traditions by Michael Whelton gives a comprehensive examination of many such instances.

[D-fendr]

This is a brochure pic from a pre-civil war seminary, now a "Spirituality Center" in Cajun country. I went on retreat and study there, and contemplative prayer is also instructed and led weekly at a center in my local parish (by a priest from India).

I'm in East Texas near the La. border. I live in the largest town within a couple hundred miles, and it ain't that big. We have an RC cathedral in one of the largest Baptist areas but no Orthodox mass that I'm aware of and none listed in phone books. Roman Catholics comprise about 4% of the area population.

[Wordsmith]

Once the West has been sufficiently rebloodied by Islam, they might have a chance to begin to understand.

Very true. While I don't have any first hand experience, my godfather is a Lebenese Christian. The stories he'd tell really opened my eyes. He was the first person I ever knew who straight out said, "Islam is evil."

It's also ironic, I think, that I've encountered such disdain for Constantine, and the Byzantine Empire, among fundamentalists on Free Republic. Without the buttress of the Byzantines, the Muslims would have overrun Europe and killed the Rennaissance in its cradle.

[Wordsmith]

Similarly, both sides gave communion to infants but one side changed that in the 12th Century.

Catholics don't give communion to infants? That's sad. Maybe someone here will tell me why.