Orthodoxy and Parallel Monologues

First Things ^ | March 2002 | Richard John Neuhaus

[Wordsmith]

Hello all. Forgive me if this excerpt from Neuhaus’s regular First Things column, “The Public Square”, has been posted already.

I’m hoping to find out if there is any interest in traditionalist Christians – especially fellow Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans – having a regular discussion about issues related to our respective faiths. In light of the soul-searching that many Roman Catholics are now doing because of the current scandal, I thought that a cross-confessional dialogue might be a welcome relief.

We Orthodox are also preparing to celebrate the Sunday of Orthodoxy, when all Orthodox across jurisdictional boundaries come together for worship.

Lastly, as some of you know, I’ve recently given up on participation in the Neverending Story thread – but still would like the chance to talk about faith.

Please bump this thread to any and all you think might be interested. Thanks, and Christ Bless!

[Wordsmith]

BUMP

[Wordsmith]

Full disclosure, I'm an Orthodox Christian currently attending a parish of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America. I converted 8 years ago, after being raised agnostic. I'd say that Neuhaus has some accurate observations about the difficulties of American Orthodox, who have to straddle West and East. I'm also very familiar with the phenomenon he describes, of zealous converts who reject the notion of any kind of contact with Catholicism because of their desire to defend the purity of Orthodox spirituality. I'm somewhat conflicted on the topic myself, and seeing as we are having more Roman Catholic visitors to our Orthodox parishes I expect I'll be challenged to work it out!

Christ Bless.

[father_elijah]

BUMP

[don-o]

I’m hoping to find out if there is any interest in traditionalist Christians – especially fellow Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans – having a regular discussion about issues related to our respective faiths.

I am up for it. But keeping the static down from non-traditionalist Christians - about 25,000 varieties - will be the challenge to stay focused on the point.

Worth a try.

[Wordsmith]

But keeping the static down from non-traditionalist Christians - about 25,000 varieties - will be the challenge to stay focused on the point.

Agreed. I was sharing the story of my conversion recently, and was struck again by the way that Orthodoxy for me cut through the confusion of the denominational landscape. As a "spiritual seeker" with little knowledge of Christianity, it would have been so easy to be overwhelmed - sensory overload, like the mall on Thanksgiving weekend. Thank God, I was led to a particular book - a biography of an American Orthodox monk, also a convert - with the subtitle "A Pathfinder to the Heart of Ancient Christianity." That phrase was a lifeline, and from there God reeled me in.

[IMRight]

Starting a competing thread huh? You the Dave Thomas to our KFC?

If you run a tight ship (and give a reasonable signing bonus), I just might be tempted to switch. :)

God Bless.

[Wordsmith]

No competition here! I don't even know if there's any interest, we'll see. I've been a fan of Neuhaus for awhile though, and now that the Story and Mary threads have exposed me for the first time to conversation with real live Catholics, I'd like to keep up the conversation. If the Calvinists can have there thread, seems like us sacramental types could have ours.

[IMRight]

If the Calvinists can have there thread, seems like us sacramental types could have ours.

Do we have to let the Lutherans in? They can't carry a tune in a sack. :)

I'm game. Though I'm not as fluent on all the things you guys are wrong about. The fundamentalists are so much easier.

[Wordsmith]

I know you live with ecumenism every day right in your own home, but I'm surprised that folks often seem to come at these questions from the angle of "where are you wrong?" rather than "where are you right?" I suppose its because we all like a good fight, but in other cross-denominational religious threads on FR I've noticed that a person will always respond to the 10% of another person's position that they disagree with rather than the 90% that they do.

I'm as guilty of it as anyone, I suppose. I had focused on what Catholics did wrong - especially since V2. I'd heard horror stories about how the altars had been gutted, and how the celebrants were facing the congregation, and how the old mystery had gone. Then I actually visited a Catholic Church in my town and found it rather nice. Decent plainchant from the celebrant, reverence from the congregation.

I think one thing that scares Orthodox about Roman Catholics is the unpredictability within the American Catholic Church. Seems like the innovators have made it possible for there to be a wide variety - both in type and quality - to your services and to your role in the community.

[IMRight]

but I'm surprised that folks often seem to come at these questions from the angle of "where are you wrong?" rather than "where are you right?" I suppose its because we all like a good fight, but in other cross-denominational religious threads on FR I've noticed that a person will always respond to the 10% of another person's position that they disagree with rather than the 90% that they do.

I was, of course, kidding. But I already knew "where are you right" (wherever you agree with me of course) :-)

I rather think I would enjoy the exchange without the constant barage of "you really worship the pagan goddess Mary... I know you do you liar.....blah blah blah blah. I have found it exceptionaly hard to respond in a charitable way, and I am normally extremely slow to anger.

Anyway, did you notice that you jumped ship at just the right time? (does this make you a "rat"?) It looks like they are going to take their football and go home - that is, shut down the (formerly) Neverending Thread?

[billbears]

traditionalist Christians

Well I'm probably not what you would consider traditionalist by denomination, but I am by faith. Not a Calvinist FWIW, at least don't think I am and most of the religion tests I take I show up as Eastern Orthodox even though I'm conservative Southern Baptist. Don't know how much I'll add and will NOT try to argue, but mainly curious and might ask a question or two if it's okay

[Wordsmith]

Although unity is nice to think about, I can't see it happening.

I don't expect to see full communion within my lifetime, barring completely unforeseen circumstances. But I do think it may be possible for our Churches to work more closely together in America. We do have an exceptional opportunity here, since nationality unites us rather than adds to our divisions. A unified American Orthodox Church would make the dialogue easier, but I don't expect to see that in my lifetime either!

The issue of the authority of the Pope, by itself, would not stop the thing, IMO.

I don't know. I'm not terribly up-to-speed on the dialogues that have taken place, but I tend to think that the issue of papal authority is much more of a problem than any issue connected to spirituality.

I would think that most Orthodox could come to terms in a workable way with "the primacy of Peter," but I don't think that they could ever accept that as any kind of administrative authority.

Neither would that, "proceeds from the Father and the Son," issue.

I think that those Orthodox who have a working grasp of theology, though, would need to work this out clearly. We are very focused on the role of the Holy Spirit, and the filioque is seen as leading to a diminishment, at least in understanding, of the HS. But yes, I'd think we could work it out as we've worked out certain issues with the Monophysites.

I refer to (1) contraception and (2) re-marriage after divorce.

Yes, this would be a challenge. However, I don't think that the positions of traditionalist Orthodox and Catholic laity on these issues are likely far apart.

Thanks for replying to my ping! God Bless.

[Wordsmith]

I rather think I would enjoy the exchange without the constant barage of "you really worship the pagan goddess Mary... I know you do you liar.....blah blah blah blah. I have found it exceptionaly hard to respond in a charitable way, and I am normally extremely slow to anger.

Agreed. The conversation was not leading me to a good place, spiritually. I would like the chance to discuss Mary, and try to gain a better appreciation for the Catholic sense of her place. But on that thread, I felt that I didn't want to instead just lock arms with the Catholics and defend her from slander.

Obviously, a big difference between the fundamentalists and the "sacramentalists" is our belief that the saints are alive and well and as much vehicles of God's purposes now as the holy angels. But I'm at a loss as to how to begin explaining the concept to fundamentalists.

Anyway, did you notice that you jumped ship at just the right time? (does this make you a "rat"?) It looks like they are going to take their football and go home - that is, shut down the (formerly) Neverending Thread?

I noticed! Pretty strange, actually. The thread has been in bad shape for a couple of weeks, people's hearts seemed to not be in it as much. Maybe that's why it turned to such harsh sniping again. I believe that God was leading me to back away, and if I hadn't made a public commitment to it I would likely have let myself get drawn back in.

A couple of nights ago, I was about to get drawn in to what could have turned in to a snarky exchange with Iowegian over the Orthodox understanding of deification. I think you were in on the exchange. Just as I was about to reply, we lost our power. All of a sudden, everything in the house went completely black except for the candle that was burning in front of our icons. It was a total shock, and helped me see that a moment earlier as I was about to post I hadn't been in a good place spiritually. The next morning, I called it quits.

[D-fendr]

thanks for the post and the bump. I've learned more about the Orthodox on Free Republic than anywhere else.

Please forgive my limited knowledge; here's my current view: If I disregard the political history and power struggles (a big disregard I know), I think of the RCC and Orthodox as pretty much the same church - with differences in emphasis (as well as cultures of course).

I agree that the Orthodox is more Eastern, meaning more contemplative and non-conceptual, but that's a generalization and I've found quite a bit of the contemplative tradition even in the Old South.

IMHO, I would be confortable in either, but the RCC is the one that allows me the most community here.

thanks again and best wishes…

[american colleen]

The issue of the authority of the Pope, by itself, would not stop the thing, IMO. If it weren't for certain other difficulties, I think the Orthodox could be talked into it.

Seems like this is an issue up for grabs, to a degree? Neuhaus' article shocked me with the following:

In the 1995 encyclical Ut Unum Sint (That They May be One), the Pope invited others to join in rethinking the function of the papal office itself, suggesting that reconciliation is more important than questions of jurisdiction. As one Orthodox theologian told me, “We’ve been waiting a thousand years for a pope to say what he is saying. Now this Pope has said it, and we act as though nothing has happened.”

It is safe to say that the dearest hope of this Pope for his pontificate has been ecclesial reconciliation with the Orthodox, so that, as he has often put it, “the Church may again breathe with both lungs, East and West.” It is also safe to say that such reconciliation will not happen on his watch. That is very sad.

IMVHO, this is an issue worth exploring - I am going to read Ut Unum Sint (in English ha ha) and try to discern just how JPII views bending on jurisdiction... Again, IMHO, the "filioque" issue doesn't seem to me to be a doctrinal division or disagreement, but as I understand it, the Eastern Church was outraged that the Western Church inserted the words without consulting the rest of the Patriarchs. Then we'd have to deal with the sacking of Constantinople... I guess this is still a very sore point with the East.

I think the schism is arguably the saddest chapter in Christianity because our Churches agree on so much more than we disagree on, unlike most of the Protestant denominations (excepting Anglicanism).

I think one of the strengths that the Catholics have had is the Pontiff's role - funny, because it is probably the most controversial issue of Catholicism to outsiders. I view it as a blessing - JP11 is a recognized world leader and articulate spokesperson - when he talks, people listen (well, except the AmChurch!) - it seems to me that a religion is more likely to be fragmented within itself without a centralized authority. Just like the secular world would be without a President or Head of State, CEO, etc.

Well, I'm a bit off topic here, but thanks for the *ping* Wordsmith, I'm game!

[Wordsmith]

I show up as Eastern Orthodox even though I'm conservative Southern Baptist. Don't know how much I'll add and will NOT try to argue, but mainly curious and might ask a question or two if it's okay.

Hi billbears, glad to hear from you. I suppose as good a question as any is, "what's a traditionalist Christian?" There's things I'd like to learn about Southern Baptists. The only kind of Baptist that I believe I've had any exchanges with here are "IFB's." I've heard a little about the conflict right now over some kind of Southern Baptist statement of faith. So it seems like the Southern Baptists are struggling with some of the questions of "how does the Church function as an organization, rather than just as an independent parish?" This obviously is a big topic of conversation among Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans and such.

The big division between Orthodox and Baptist theology, I'd venture, is over the Sacraments. Orthodoxy is very much a "sacramental faith." Seems like lots of folks don't believe there's any common ground between OSAS and Sacramental Christianity, but I'm not so sure. We're likely just talking past each other a lot of the time. I've been surprised at how much "sola scriptura" can be reconciled with Orthodox theology once people actually start defining it.

[Wordsmith]

However, once the Catholic Church takes a position on any issue of faith or morals, it never reverses itself.

In looking at how our Churches actually function in the world, it seems like one of the biggest differences is that the Orthodox have been much more reticent in committing themselves to particular positions. For example, we've never had any kind of doctrine of transubstantiation, preferring instead to consider it a mystery and let that be that.

I think something similar is at work in faith and morals. I'm not up to speed on the Orthodox position on divorce. (Don-o, any thoughts?) I do know that second marriages, when they're performed, are much more penitential in character, much less celebratory. In acknowledgement of the fact that this isn't a great way to go. How different is this for marriages after annulment in Catholicism?

As far as contraception goes, I hadn't realized that the RC position was absolute. I've just started looking into Orthodox bioethics, with which this is connected, and there's a lot to discuss there.