The New Hobbit Hole

[HairOfTheDog]

I think PJ may have been paying homage to the "Saruman's voice" part without complicating the story with it...

I haven't watched the movie for a good long while now! - (two weeks?) what's up with that?

[RosieCotton]

Elrond did not dictate that Frodo should continue to carry the ring! - Only observed correctly that he had so far shown more resistance to it than some MEN he knew would. He decided to hold the council so that all could decide...

Yeah, well I STILL don't like his tone of voice! (The movie Elrond.) He was hinting that Frodo continue, you know he was! ;-)

[ksen]

Gandalf could stand up to the Voice, though, even in the book, right?

Gandalf was only shown to resist Saruman's voice after he had become "Gandalf the White."

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

You could be right about Saruman using his Voice... I think I got that impression too on my last viewing of the movie.

By the way, about the Elves... I was reading the first Annals of Beleriand from the History of Middle-Earth last night... and I got to the part during the last great battle with Morgoth's forces, that the Elves lost. So, Turgon and and his Elves are retreating, leaving Men under Hurin and Huor to guard the rear. All of the Men get killed, including Huor (and him with a pregnant wife back home!) Hurin get taken captive, tortured, held prisoner for years, and his entire family cursed by Morgoth.

Turgon gets to go back and hide in Gondolin and enjoy himself.

Now, was that fair?

[RosieCotton]

I think PJ may have been paying homage to the "Saruman's voice" part without complicating the story with it...

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I'm sure they'll explain it in the next movie, but I thought maybe he was including "the power of Saruman's voice" without actually explicitly explaining it.

[ksen]

"Isildur! Toss the Ring into the fire!.............Please? Pretty please?............Rats......oh well, later."

[ksen]

I was reading the first Annals of Beleriand from the History of Middle-Earth last night...

That was your first mistake.

Turgon gets to go back and hide in Gondolin and enjoy himself.

Now, was that fair?

Well what ended up happening to Gondolin?

[Corin Stormhands]

"Isildur! Toss the Ring into the fire!.............Please? Pretty please?............Rats......oh well, later."

Hurry! Hurry! My hair is getting the frizzies...

[RosieCotton]

OK, NOW explain why Elrond didn't take the ring from Isildur in the first place! In the discussion I had with my family, we said it's possible that it would have destroyed Isildur (for the same reasons that Gandalf couldn't forcibly take the ring from Bilbo), but doesn't the good of the many outweigh the good of the one here?

And I don't buy the "if I touch it for the one second it takes me to through it in, I'll become corrupted and powerful and terrible and mess up the world" excuse!

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

Well what ended up happening to Gondolin?

Sure, but Turgon could have still wound up saving Gondolin if only he had listened to Ulmo's advice!

It just always seemed to me that the Elves were always leaving the Men behind to guard the rear... get killed... taken captive... tortured... you know, all that icky stuff Elves didn't want to deal with.

[HairOfTheDog]

[sigh]

[ksen]

Hurry! Hurry! My hair is getting the frizzies...

Great! How on Middle-Earth am I going to get these ichor stains out of my blouse, er, jerkin.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

And I don't buy the "if I touch it for the one second... excuse!"

Why not? Gandalf wouldn't even touch it in the movie, and Galadriel got dark and scary-looking just thinking about taking the ring....

[RosieCotton]

if I touch it for the one second it takes me to through it in,

Err...make that throw. Oops...

[Corin Stormhands]

He decided to hold the council so that all could decide...

Sheesh! Middle-Earth is being attacked by the terrorists and Elrond wants to take it to the UN...

[RosieCotton]

Why not? Gandalf wouldn't even touch it in the movie, and Galadriel got dark and scary-looking just thinking about taking the ring....

Touching wasn't forbidden in the book, was it?

Maybe it's just a special movie rule, and because of that, the movie Elrond has an excuse for just standing and yelling.

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't think he let him go because he didn't want to destroy Isildur... He wasn't afaid to break Isildur's spirit... That wasn't the reason.

I think the question would have been whether he should have pushed Isildur in. And I think it was questionable whether he would have been able to do that. It was a mistake, in the end, not to try, and I saw considerable regret in Elrond's face when he retold that story.

My question, from a historical standpoint, (and I realize the exact scene we are discussing was not really true to the book) BUT, was Elrond already a ring-bearer at that point in the story? - or did his ring come later? To me, that may change everything about whether he could have taken out Isildur at that moment.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

That guy in the Smokey Backroom is really grating, isn't he?

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

Touching wasn't forbidden in the book, was it?

If my memory serves me correctly (< /Iron Chef! >) book-Gandalf did touch the Ring at least once, I think he picked up the Ring after Bilbo dropped it, put it in the envelope, sealed the envelope, and then put it on the mantle. But I think that's the only time Gandalf touched the Ring in the book. I'm pretty sure I'm right, 'cause after my first viewing of the movie I went back to the book to check on that... I actually preferred the movie version where Gandalf refused to touch the Ring.

[RosieCotton]

BUT, was Elrond already a ring-bearer at that point in the story? - or did his ring come later? To me, that may change everything about whether he could have taken out Isildur at that moment.

Do you mean that because HIS ring was subject to the One, he was somehow under Isildur's power? That's an interesting thought. Or do you mean something else?