Posted on 09/07/2024 5:16:23 AM PDT by Olympiad Fisherman
I’m aware.
Your point is that the Jews DID kill Jesus? The thing I said is still repeated to malign Jews 2,000 years later?
Isn’t the story that God, the father, sent his only son as a sacrifice to die for our sins?
Probably should blame God then as he set up the whole thing.
Isn’t the story that God, the father, sent his only son as a sacrifice to die for our sins? Probably should blame God then as he set up the whole thing.
Recall Jesus overcame death so that those who believe in Him will have eternal life.
No way I blame God for His Sovereignty.
Without that sacrifice we'd all be facing a very long and unpleasant eternity.
One can recognize that Jews had Jesus killed and know that it was part of God’s plan and that it happened just as the Bible described, in fact how do we avoid knowing that history?
God sacrificed His son.
Jews leaders and crowd wanted and chose him to die.
The Romans were the instrument of death.
All true at the same time
None replaces the other
Knowing the history, or at least the story as written in the Bible is one thing and not a problem.
The fact that it has been used as an excuse for antisemitism is not.
It also, as I stated earlier, not an obstacle to Christians using it as a reason to look at Jewish people as suspicious, which is all too often the case.
And yet, we don’t hear the Romans killed Jesus so let’s persecute people descended from Italy as Christ killers.
“14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind”
And
“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross” (Acts 2:22–23,)
The Romans were the “wicked men” by whom Jesus was killed. The Romans also share the blame in killing Jesus.
Both true.
• Romans 8:32 says that God “did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all.”
• Isaiah 53:10 also reveals that it was God’s will for Christ to die: “It was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and . . . the Lord makes his life an offering for sin.”
It’s not that God actually put Jesus on the cross or pounded the nails, but the cross was God’s plan to redeem humanity. Peter preached that Jesus’ betrayal and death was according to “God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge” (Acts 2:23). Jesus’ death was God’s will (see Luke 22:42).
ALL true.
If you want the biblical answer.
Definition of a Christian: A person who recognizes that he/she is a condemned sinner and so then looks to Christ and believes in his atoning sacrifice. After believing and baptism he then lives a grateful and repentant life empowered by the Holy Spirit. His life will be characterized by an increasing measure of the fruits of the Spirit including kindness, gentleness, love, joy, patience and self-control.
He will be profoundly humble in word, thought and deed - knowing that Christ died for him.
“””The Jews killed Jesus is still an oft repeated thing.”””
“””Your point is that the Jews DID kill Jesus? The thing I said is still repeated to malign Jews 2,000 years later?”””
“””Knowing the history, or at least the story as written in the Bible is one thing and not a problem.”””
It is a major part of the story, it has to be told, people hating Jews is a separate problem of them as individuals, but the story has to be known and told.
The biblical answer, with all due respect, really means nothing, to me, or anyone else. I’ll tell you why.
Even those who profess to follow the Bible have their own interpretations and use it to justify all sorts of things, as is done with any book considered holy.
There’s no way in hell anyone should be listened to who quotes scripture from any religion to justify public policy or the guilt or innocence of a person based on where they came from. I’m very confident quoting the Quran wouldn’t move you in the least.
I just reject one more holy book than you do.
The fact remains that the Jews killed Jesus argument has been used to persecute them for a long, long time, and those who do it are using the same book you are. And Hitler manipulated the population using the same religious imagery and beliefs whether he was an actual Christian or not.
This kind of crap goes on today all the time. There was just a thread yesterday about Russell Brand apparently becoming a Christian and people were happy. Trump doesn’t know the difference between the beatitudes or Betelgeuse but still is able to charm religious folks.
That was a bit of a ramble, but so be it.
The story has to be known and told?
Not really if you think about it. Maybe for Christians, but outside of that, eh, not so much.
I thought you were a Christian?
No.
Raised Christian though. Father was an evangelical / Pentecostal minister. Went to Christian schools.
That explains it.
What explains what exactly?
No
Only to Christ haters
He tolerated it
—> The fact remains that the Jews killed Jesus argument has been used to persecute them for a long, long time, and those who do it are using the same book you are.
I did not post scripture to persecute Jews.
You brought that up yourself.
I posted Scripture because the truth matters.
If you don’t want to know the truth, that’s your call.
“ Idid not post scripture to persecute Jews.”
Didn’t say you did. I said that those verses have been used to justify the persecution.
“You brought that up yourself”
Kinda. But in response to a post that wondered how could a real Christian not like Jews because Jesus was a Jew, as if there isn’t a couple thousand years of history.
“I posted Scripture because the truth matters.
If you don’t want to know the truth, that’s your call.“
And there’s the major issue. If your argument requires the person you’re speaking with to hold the same religious beliefs and usually it’s coming from the perspective of a subset of the major religion, the argument will never, ever be resolved.
Your truth here is a belief based on faith. To everyone outside of that faith it’s just nonsense.
The most important man in history, Jewish history, Roman history, World history, Jesus’s story is not one you can squelch, nor should you even want to or continue to bother trying, it is far bigger than even the world’s largest religion.
Not trying to squelch anyone. Haven’t told anyone to shut up, haven’t insulted anyone, not part of a movement, hell, I don’t even care if I change anyone’s mind. Not my business.
I’m responding to arguments using a religious text as a source for truth. A tactic that no one would accept unless it was from their religion.
I’ve been derided here more times than I can count for being an atheist and I can handle it.
Having grown up in the church I can even understand the perspective.
What I don’t understand is the inability for people to realize that their personal religious beliefs aren’t truth to everyone. I’d say the same thing to someone of any religion. This isn’t anti Christian alone.
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