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Posted on 06/29/2023 4:16:36 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp
“ Your argument applies perfectly well to slavery. A slave cannot be free if he cannot overcome a superior force holding him in bondage”
And so.
How were the slaves eventually freed?
The question is more interesting when you strip out the whole slavery issue. Beyond that, I await eagerly to read the documentary support for the right to secede at will. So far no one has made that case, just lots of bloviating.
Definitely there were a lot of Loyalists in parts of the South--at least in some battles it was a civil war of Americans against Americans with just the leaders on the other side being from Britain. But the Loyalists discovered that once the British left the area they were on their own.
I ran across the letter years ago when doing some research on the New York convention. It was a private letter—I don’t remember who the recipient was. For sure the question of whether a state had a right to secede was unresolved before the Civil War, and only resolved by force by the Union army.
“To all to whom these Presents shall come, we, the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting. Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America in Congress assembled did on the fifteenth day of November in the year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of Newhampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhodeisland and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia in the Words following, viz. “Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of Newhampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhodeisland and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.
“Article I. The Stile of this confederacy shall be, “The United States of America.”
“Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.”
“Article IV. The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different states in this union, the free inhabitants of each of these states, paupers, vagabonds and fugitives from Justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several states; and the people of each state shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other state, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any state, to any other State of which the Owner is an inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties or restriction shall be laid by any state, on the property of the united states, or either of them.”
“every state shall always keep up a well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutred, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition, and camp equipage.”
“Article VIII. All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defence or general welfare, and allowed by the united states in congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several states, in proportion to the value of all land within each state, granted to or surveyed for any Person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated, according to such mode as the united states, in congress assembled, shall, from time to time, direct and appoint. The taxes for paying that proportion shall be laid and levied by the authority and direction of the legislatures of the several states within the time agreed upon by the united states in congress assembled.”
“The united states, in congress assembled, shall also be the last resort on appeal, in all disputes and differences now subsisting, or that hereafter may arise between two or more states concerning boundary, jurisdiction, or any other cause whatever; which authority shall always be exercised in the manner following....”
“The united states, in congress assembled, shall also have the sole and exclusive right and power of regulating the alloy and value of coin struck by their own authority, or by that of the respective states - fixing the standard of weights and measures throughout the united states - regulating the trade and managing all affairs with the Indians, not members of any of the states; provided that the legislative right of any state, within its own limits, be not infringed or violated -”
“The united States, in congress assembled, shall have authority....to agree upon the number of land forces, and to make requisitions from each state for its quota, in proportion to the number of white inhabitants in such state, which requisition shall be binding; and thereupon the legislature of each state shall appoint the regimental officers, raise the men, and clothe, arm, and equip them, in a soldier-like manner, at the expense of the united states”
“Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determinations of the united states, in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every state.”
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/articles-of-confederation
In the book “Lee: The Last Years” by Charles Bracelen Flood he notes that none of the southern leadership, including Lee, was ever tried for treason. He says that Salmon P. Chase, who was then Chief Justice, told Federal Prosecutors to not try it because they might not get a conviction and that would set a bad precedent.
Amendment X.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
I agree that the states had a 10th amendment right to secede. And that’s how the US Supreme Court would have ruled in 1861. But a hotheaded leader named Jefferson Davis turned a winning legal case into a losing war.
Trump does not agree.
Lincoln was an incompetent softy. Jackson would have ended the war in 3 mouths.
Trump loves Andrew Jackson, Jackson disagreed, both are NATIONALISTS.
Except the Confederacy wrote a clause against Sucession on thete OWN Constitution.
The President should be a nationalist, not to be concerned about state issues and to project power to the world. I am familiar with Jackson’s quote of his willingness to hang secessionists himself.
However, that doesn’t change a right of a state to leave. As I said, the Founding Fathers did not enumerate to the federal government the ability to prevent a state from leaving. So, therefore, it had a right to leave via the Tenth Amendment.
The only thing the Federal government can do is place conditions upon a state that regrets leaving and applies to join the union again. There, the federal government can place all the conditions it wants. That’s also a check against a schizophrenic state from joining, then leaving and joining again.
Tens of Thousands of Southenwrs did not feel that way, the followed under the Jacksonian banner.
I miss Walter Williams!
All I said was that states had the right to secede. Many Southeners don’t like gun rights either, but America grants it. An individual may be against the state right, but that doesn’t remove a state from exercising its rights.
Prior to Lincoln, just about everybody agreed states had the right to secede. Lincoln himself praised secession as “a principle to liberate the world” in 1848 in a speech as a US Representative.
All I said was that states had the right to secede. Many Southeners don’t like gun rights either, but America grants it. An individual may be against the state right, but that doesn’t remove a state from exercising its rights.
As I said, it’s a final check on federal incursions, so it shouldn’t be used lightly.
When I think of Walter Williams I think of a man who truly loved his wife above all.
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