Posted on 11/02/2022 2:26:21 PM PDT by Qiviut
Does forgiveness preclude justice? Just because we forgive, does that mean there should be no consequences for their actions, or that we do not hold them accountable?
We are to basically forgive others as God does us, dropping charges in our heart, meaning that we are not to be seeking vengeance, retribution, having none in our heart, and be willing to suffer injustice, vs. vengeance: "Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (1 Corinthians 6:7)
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. (2 Timothy 4:16)
The Lord Himself said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," (Luke 23:34) and likewise the martyred Stephen (Acts 7:60) - rather than punishing them for that sin.
However, yet the same were told of their error and need for repentance. For as a class, the Jews were reminded that "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23) "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." (Acts 3:17-19)
Moreover, there is place for holding personal offenders accountable, for in context the text above in 1 Corinthians 6 was stated as rather than going to civil court and airing the dirty laundry of the church then we are to suffer injustice. But if the latter is chosen, the body is to handle such as per Matthew 18. "Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers." (1 Corinthians 6:5,6)
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:15-20)
Also, the Corinthian church was to forgive the now-penitent man who was chastised for gross adulterous incest. (2 Corinthians 2:7)
Meaning therefore, as i see it, that on the personal level we can choose to freely forgive, as per Christ toward the ignorant, and even to "suffer yourselves to be defrauded" by brethren, yet there is also a place for pointing out faults and responsibility and seeking correction, but not in personal vengeance, and indeed, it should be in order to deal with the character of the offender and the church or ruling entity, for the gospel.
Paul, when unjustly treated by civil authorities, for the sake of the gospel, essentially made them confess their injustice: "And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace. But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out. (Acts 16:36-37)
And while we can even allow ourselves to be defrauded, yet forgiving your child for irresponsibly damaging the family car does not mean that for principle's sake (teaching responsibility) - and not in seeking vengeance, retribution, having no grudge in our heart - does not mean you may not require him/her to pay for damages, thereby teaching responsibility.
Accountability and motive is key here. Out attitude is to be that of being forgiving as regards suffering personal injustices, dropping any and all charges in our heart, esp. toward the ignorant, and even allowing personal injustices within the body, yet there is place for holding offenders accountable, for right principle's sake, that of the character of the church, relationships, and for the sake of the gospel having free course.
In contrast, we are not to take attacks on God/Christ and the Truth as we would personal insults, and wishing judgment upon such as attack the truth and mission of the church, has its place: For the same apostle who wrote,
Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:14,19) Also expressed,
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. (2 Timothy 4:14-15)
I do not see this as a quest for personal justice (and may mean the Lord shall give him his due him), but as written due to opposition of Alexander - whom i suspect made idols - to the gospel.
Yet as cited before, what follows in the next verse is the opposite of any seeking of personal vengeance, nor church discipline which sin in the camp required in 1 Co. 5, but that of a forgiving, compassionate heart:
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. (2 Timothy 4:16-17) Note that the latter was literal.
This is the kind of heart we are to have, forsaking wrath and vengeance, retribution, and I think any seeking or redress for wrongs must be only for the sake of the principle of requiring accountability of those relative to what should be expected of them, which is for the holy character of the church (relationships therein) and the sake of the gospel.
I hope that helps. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
“But we are keeping score.”
I’m Italian. I will never forget, and I will only forgive those who take responsibility for their actions, accepting their punishment.
Until then, they have no idea: WE ARE WATCHING YOU. That goes for all the vaxtards who supported the ‘solution’ and the looming decades-long fallout of their naive, unscientific, emotional, injurious decisions.
I don’t take too kindly to being told I’m wrong when I’m right; I will NEVER forgive until there is accountability for being persecuted because I was right and nearly being compelled to comply by injuring myself (an action which would have had untold consequences).
Irony:
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4105807/posts
‘”The experts” failed us when we needed them most. Then they demonized us for doubting their “expertise.” And now they admit they weren’t “the experts” at all — only “well-wishers.” After ruining our lives, they cry for “amnesty.” If we learned one thing from a three-year pandemic, it’s that we should not give it to them. We should hold “the experts” accountable so that all the future experts take notice.’
Monty Python reference. Sorry you missed it.
Ah! Thanks for the reminder; I had totally forgotten.
Re: 60 - Never did get jabbed myself, as was (and am still gathering data) to make a data informed decision.
More irony:
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/4105780/posts
“She and others like her must pay by being exposed for their role in this suicide of courage, logic, and decency and, at the very least, never be taken seriously about matters of substance ever again.”
And more:
https://dailycaller.com/2022/11/02/no-mercy-quarter-time-to-crush-branch-covidians/
“Americans excel at many things, but we have never been good at forgiving tyrants.
Nor should we be. People suffered real, tangible loss over the past two years when civil liberties were discarded by Covid thugs serving their despotic rulers. The American way of life demands justice and accountability from those who caused the harm.”
Let’s just not forget those who supported them as well (I, for one, will NOT).
A fine summation. Thank you, L.
... he [Damocles] noticed that Dionysius had also hung a razor-sharp sword from the ceiling. It was positioned over Damocles’ head, suspended only by a single strand of horsehair. From then on, the courtier’s fear for his life made it impossible for him to savor the opulence of the feast or enjoy the servants. After casting several nervous glances at the blade dangling above him, he asked to be excused, saying he no longer wished to be so fortunate.
Which raises an interesting question regarding forgiveness.
Scripture tells us that if our brother offend us and come to us and ask forgiveness, to grant it to him.
Ok fine.
However, what about forgiveness without repentance? God does not forgive us without repentance. He doesn’t just give blanket forgiveness for all wrongs done.
For those who have not wronged me, and for some who have, I usually pray that if or since I cannot forgive them, that I turn them over to God and leave the matter in His hands.
Now, maybe that is forgiveness of sorts. The big problem is the emotions involved with the incident. I can try and forgive someone but still sometimes, often actually, what they did still was wrong and makes me angry to think of it, That then FEELS like unforgiveness.
No worries. I don’t always provide attribution when I should.
Bottom line: Who seeks “amnesty”???
The GUILTY.
You nailed it!!!!
I don’t recall who it was, maybe Tucker, who observed that this piece really is just outreach to the suburban wine moms who seem to have decided to abandon the Democrat party this cycle. It’s not really coherent in any other context, so that’s probably the right way to understand what Oster was up to.
Will this move any meaningful number of votes? Almost certainly not. It’s really just further confirmation of the lock-step alignment of the legacy media with the institutional interests of the Democrat party, which is so obvious as to be boring at this point. But it’s quite the accomplishment, if you think about it. Elon’s timid challenge to the establishment’s absolute control of the media has sent their flunkies into a frothing panic. Which should tell us that their hold on power may be more tenuous than they would like us to believe.
@ 48 - thoughtful post! Yeah - I can forgive (and am actually commanded to, even for a transgressor 70 times 7 who repents and genuinely asks for forgiveness). Kinda like Christians and our Lord.
Consequences are consequences for the transgressor even if they are forgiven.
I personally will not FORGET what these people did to scores of millions of Americans including myself. Most of the time I am not living in anger but carry scars.
I was even wounded by my church on this issue. Sigh - Maranatha.
Trust needs to be earned, although for some reason, people have this notion that it is their due and you are a bad person for not trusting them.
That is blame shifting.
If trust is lost, it’s the fault of the untrustworthy person who violated someone’s trust in them. I cannot blame anyone for being skeptical these days.
My thoughts are that while I don’t automatically trust everyone I meet, I make every effort to be trustworthy, so I don’t betray anyone’s trust in me. That’s my goal.
Indeed and well stated in my opinion. And btw, my forgiveness for what has happened has not been asked for, but simply amnesty - (amnesia) for what they did.
They need to say out loud what they did and ask for forgiveness - which the writer certainly did not do. I am not forgiving unrepentant folks nor do I think scripture indicates we should.
Something interesting...
Not every company that was mandated to ensure all their employees were vaxxed did so despite the fact the companies were government contractors and/or subcontractors.
Some companies threatened, coerced, but never followed through with the pink slips.
Why was that? And how did they get away with that?
Mr. Carlisle, something you might want to look into.
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