Posted on 05/01/2020 4:53:12 PM PDT by Meatspace
Give it rest drama queen. It ain’t that fatal. Plan on wearing a mask the rest of your life? Cause it ain’t going away and there will be no marital vaccine. Time to get on with herd immunity.
Really? LOL! You sound like a school girl.. Just stay under bed and hide.
“Just stay under bed and hide.”
Some bedtime music for the flu Nazi’s...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAzVYCs4BMY
Only if you want to fly on one of their planes.
When the State/Government tells you it’s safe to go to Home Depot to buy a sponge but dangerous to go and buy a flower, it’s not about your health.
When the State/Government shuts down millions of private businesses but doesn’t lay off a single government employee, it’s not about your health.
When the State/Government bans dentists because its unsafe, but deems abortion visits are safe, it’s not about your health.
When the State/Government prevents you from buying cucumber seeds because it’s dangerous, but allows in person lottery ticket sales, it’s not about your health.
When the State/Government tells you it’s dangerous to go golf alone, fish alone or be in a motor boat alone, but the Governor can get his stage make up done, and hair done for 5 TV appearances a week, it’s not about your health.
When the State/Government puts you IN a jail cell for walking in a park with your child because it’s too dangerous, but let’s criminals OUT of jail cells for their health- It’s not about YOUR health!
When the State/Government tells you it’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet deems a liquor store essential- It’s not about your health!
When the State/Government lets you go to the grocery store or hardware store but is demanding mail-in voting, ITS NOT ABOUT YOUR HEALTH.
WAKE UP PEOPLE — If you think this is all about your health you’re mistaken! Please open your eyes! Stop being lead like blind sheep.
“Perhaps you can point us to the FAR requiring filtering for recirculating air?”
I’ve already described how airliners are designed. My daughter works maintenance on airliners. If you want to read about aviation regs, you’ll have to do it yourself.
“I’ve already described how airliners are designed. My daughter works maintenance on airliners. If you want to read about aviation regs, you’ll have to do it yourself.”
As long as filters aren’t required, then it’s meaningless, some planes will have them, others won’t - and even the ones that do have them - nothing prevents cheap and ineffective filters. And just this week the FAA stated that health concerns are not in their charter - hopefully that changes though.
As to recirculated air, I’ve heard 3 stories here on FR, one says that most air is recirculated, another says that no air is recirculated, and now half of the air is recirculated.
All may well be true, since it’s up to the airlines and may also vary with the type of plane. Again, that’s why regulations are needed. Really no different than other safety regulations, which seem to work quite well!
Welcome to “Influenza Theater!” Starring Bat Soup Flu...
We used to be able to tell the difference between the left and the right that way.
"Don't like meat? Don't eat it."
"Meat is evil, and no one will eat it!"
Now...
But...it's for a good reason!
Didn't you know? Dara talks!
“As long as filters aren’t required, then it’s meaningless, some planes will have them, others won’t - and even the ones that do have them - nothing prevents cheap and ineffective filters.”
If you deny what my daughter and what articles by pilots say, the burden of proof is on you.
“Many Delta aircraft, including all of our international widebodies, plus many narrowbodies including 737s, 757s, A220s, A319s, A320s and A321s, are equipped with state-of-the-art air circulation systems, blending fresh outside air that is sterilized with a high-temperature compressor and ozone purifier with existing cabin air that has been recirculated through an industrial-grade HEPA filter. HEPA air filters extract more than 99.999% of even the tiniest viruses, as small as 0.01 micrometers. Coronaviruses, which range from 0.08 to 0.16 micrometers in size, are filtered by the HEPA filter. Delta’s 717s use 100% fresh outside air.”
https://news.delta.com/video-air-filtration-systems-help-keep-aircraft-cabins-safe
“HEPA filters are effective at capturing greater than 99 percent of the airborne microbes in the filtered air. Filtered, recirculated air provides higher cabin humidity levels and lower particulate levels than 100% outside air systems. The cabin air system is designed to operate most efficiently by delivering approximately 50 percent outside air and 50 percent filtered, recirculated air. This normally provides between 15 to 20 cubic feet of total air supply per minute per person in economy class. The total air supply is essentially sterile and particle-free.
Cabin air circulation is continuous. Air is always flowing into and out of the cabin. Total airflow to the cabin is supplied at a bulk flow rate equivalent to 20 to 30 air changes per hour. This provides temperature control and minimizes temperature gradients within the cabin.....
Q2: Are all commercial aircraft fitted with HEPA filters?
The majority of modern, large, commercial aircraft, which use a recirculation type of cabin air system, utilize HEPA filters. A small number of older aircraft types have filters with lower efficiencies.
Q3: What is the smallest particle size that the cabin air filter element can
remove?
Air filters can remove very small particles such as bacteria and viruses. Virtually all viruses and bacteria are removed; even the most difficult particles in the range of 0.1 to 0.3 micron are filtered out with an efficiency level of of 99.995%. Contrary to popular belief, very small particles below 0.1 micron are easily filtered out by the mechanism of diffusional interception.
Q4: How often are filters changed?
The interval varies by aircraft. Most airlines replace cabin air filters at regular “hard time” intervals to fit in with routine scheduled maintenance periods, as long as these intervals do not exceed filter manufacturers’recommendations.
Q5: What happens if the cabin air filter elements are not changed out regularly?
Air flow through the filter might be reduced, but the efficiency of the filter at capturing viruses and bacteria is not affected.” - International Air Transport Association
https://www.iata.org/contentassets/f1163430bba94512a583eb6d6b24aa56/cabin-air-quality.pdf
You might also see here:
https://aerospace.pall.com/en/commercial-fixed-wing/how-cabin-air-systems-work.html
“Delta’s 717s use 100% fresh outside air.””
Flat-out LIE. I know that airplane. Do you need me to provide the panel and CB number for their recirc fan?
“Flat-out LIE. I know that airplane. Do you need me to provide the panel and CB number for their recirc fan?”
Yes. And I still won’t believe you:
“Like the DC-9, the 717 does not recirculate cabin air, but instead provides 100-percent fresh air for cabin ventilation and pressurization.”
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_01/textonly/fo01txt.html
I can go with BobL or both Boeing and Delta. Guess who I believe?
Have your ‘daughter’ look up ATA 21-27, Breaker B1-862, 863, and 864 regarding the 717 aircraft (it’s a 3-phase motor).
It’s time we stop listing to the ‘happy talk’ of people who have stakes in trying to get people back in airplanes.
Simply ask yourself a simple question: If the airlines are already giving their passengers safe air, then why are they fighting regulations to that effect?
This isn’t hard.
“If the airlines are already giving their passengers safe air, then why are they fighting regulations to that effect?”
Because they are ALREADY GETTING THE JOB DONE?
And who says they are fighting to stop people from getting filtered/fresh air?
PS: A fan is just a fan. It helps MOVE air. But I suspect Boeing - you know, the people who BUILD the plane? - know where the air is coming from! What do you think 100% fresh air means - open windows?
“It’s time we stop listing to the ‘happy talk’ of people who have stakes in trying to get people back in airplanes.”
It is time we stop listening to FrearBros who are terrified of getting out!
But I’m flying across the country next week. If I come down with coronavirus, I’ll let you know. Although it wouldn’t prove I caught it on an airliner, since I’ll be at greater risk when I go inside a WalMart!
If you are not reasonably safe on an airliner, then you aren’t safe in any store, restaurant, office, etc. Time to hide in the basement and wait until someone nukes us from orbit....
“The FAR 25 requirement for outside air for ventilation purposes is generally more than adequate for pressurization purposes as well; in the context of this discussion, pressurization is not a controlling factor for determining flow rates. The flow requirements needed to address the three remaining factors do not necessarily coincide. It was seen in a previous example that the required flow of conditioned air required for temperature control could be more than twice the FAR-specified value for outside air for contaminant control. The practice of recirculation was introduced to address this issue. As shown in Figure 2–4B, recirculation is accomplished by extracting air from the cabin and mixing it with conditioned outside air. Recirculation provides two benefits: it allows the total air flow rate to be higher than the flow rate of outside air, so good circulation in the cabin can be maintained independently of the flow of outside air; and the conditioned air is mixed with the comparatively warm recirculated air before being introduced into the cabin. Consequently, the conditioned air can be supplied at a much lower temperature (Ts in Equation 2–4) without causing discomfort from cold drafts, and the maximal flow rates of conditioned air required for temperature control can be reduced to match those required for contaminant control more closely.
Because recirculation removes air from the cabin and returns it to the cabin, it has no effect on average contaminant concentrations throughout the cabin, if it is unfiltered. Equation 2–2 still applies, and the average concentration of contaminants in the cabin air is determined by the flow rate of outside air, independently of the amount of recirculation. If the recirculation air is cleaned of contaminants, it has the same effect on contaminant concentrations in the cabin air as does clean outside air.
Current practice is to use only particle filters on recirculation air. Filter efficiencies are at least 40% (Mil Std 282) on the MD-80 series, but exceeds 93% on all other aircraft1 (Mil Std 282) (Boeing responses to NAS, April 10, 2001). Most aircraft manufactured more recently use HEPA filters. HEPA filters are highly effective (99.97% efficiency, Mil Std 282). Air filters are generally changed at the aircraft scheduled “c”-check, generally between 4,000 and 12,000 flight-hours (J.Lundquist, Pall Aerospace, personal communication, July 5, 2001). HEPA filters remove essentially all airborne pathogens and other particulate matter from an airstream that passes through them with a minimal efficiency of 99.97% for 0.3-µm particles. Although they are effective in removing particles, including bacteria and viruses, from the recirculated air and preventing their spread through the cabin by this route, they do not remove gaseous contaminants.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207472/
“Air filters are generally changed at the aircraft scheduled “c”-check, generally between 4,000 and 12,000 flight-hours”
So about every 1 or 2 years. Wow, MUCH WORSE than I even thought. No wonder there are so many stories of people getting sick in these tubes on very long flights.
But thanks for the link anyway - the part that is REQUIRED by regulations pertains to the Oxygen partial pressure, and that is good. But it wasn’t written for viruses or filtration, which is understandable, as it wasn’t as big an issue in the past.
Anyway, the happy talk is also understandable - and if I were on Legal for an airline, I’d be telling them to say exactly the same. But the only way people can be CERTAIN that air isn’t being recirculated is when the regulations catch up with today’s conditions. Until then don’t expect much of a recovery, at all.
“I thought all airlines were grounded....”
Effectively, yes. They’ll start getting customers once they convince people that they take viruses seriously, so don’t hold your breath.
Really not much different than 9-11. If the 9-11Bros had their way, we wouldn’t have effective security and planes would still be flying into buildings. Given that, there also wouldn’t be customers.
haha sorry but I have N95s as well as N100s for REAL emergencies, this goofiness isn’t going to force me into a mask and yes, I do have a doctors note.
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