Posted on 07/02/2019 1:00:19 PM PDT by wildbill
Maybe it’s him who should be making allowances.
Go sit in the corner
Seems reasonable. Plants and animals were the source for most chemicals until relatively recently.
CUZCO TALES by Richard Nisbet.
Exerpt...
B.1 EXPLORATION FAWCETT I
“Talking of birds, all through the Peruvian and Bolivian Montaña is to be found a small bird like a kingfisher, which makes its nest in neat round holes in the rocky escarpments above the river. These holes can plainly be seen, but are not usually accessible, and strangely enough they are found only where the birds are present. I once expressed surprise that they were lucky enough to find nesting-holes conveniently placed for them, and so neatly hollowed out as though with a drill.
‘They make the holes themselves.’
The words were spoken by a man who had spent a quarter of a century in the forests. ‘I’ve seen how they do it, many a time. I’ve watched, I have, and seen the birds come to the cliff with leaves of some sort in their beaks, and cling to the rock like woodpeckers to a tree while they rubbed the leaves in a circular motion over the surface. Then they would fly off, and come back with more leaves, and carry on with the rubbing process. After three or four repetitions they dropped the leaves and started pecking at the place with their sharp beaks, and–here’s the marvelous part–they would soon open out a round hole in the stone. Then off they’d go again, and go through the rubbing process with leaves several times before continuing to peck. It took several days, but finally they had opened out holes deep enough to contain their nests. I’ve climbed up and taken a look at them, and, believe me, a man couldn’t drill a neater hole ! ‘
‘Do you mean to say that the bird’s beak can penetrate solid rock?’
‘A woodpecker’s beak penetrates solid wood, doesn’t it?.. No, I don’t think the bird can get through solid rock. I believe, as everyone who has watched them believes, that those birds know of a leaf with juice that can soften up rock till it’s like wet clay.”
I put this down as a tall tale–and then, after I had heard similar accounts from others all over the country, as a popular tradition. Some time later an Englishman, whose reliability I cannot doubt, told me a story that may throw some light on it.
’ My nephew was down in the Chuncho country on the Pyrene River in Peru, and his horse going lame one day he left it at a neighbouring chacra, about five miles away from his own, and walked home. Next day he walked over to get his horse, and took a short cut through a strip of forest he had never before penetrated. He was wearing riding breeches, top boots, and big spurs–not the little English kind, but the great Mexican spurs four inches long, with rowels bigger than a half-crown piece–and these spurs were almost new. When he got to the chacra after a hot and difficult walk through thick bush he was amazed to find that his beautiful spurs were gone–eaten away somehow, till they were no more than black spikes projecting an eighth of an inch. He couldn’t understand it, till the owner of the chacra asked him if by any chance he had walked through a certain plant about a foot high, with dark reddish leaves. My nephew at once remembered that he came through a wide area where the ground was thickly covered with such a plant. ‘That’s it!’ said the chacarero. That’s what’s eaten your spurs away! That’s the stuff the Incas used for shaping stones. The juice will soften rock up till it’s like paste. You must show me where you found the plants.’ When they came to look for the place they couldn’t find it. It’s not easy to retrace your steps in jungle where no trails exist.’ “
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/waterstone.html
I seem to recall that Hannabal used vinegar and heat to
cut rocks when crossing the Alps.
Maybe it was the romans, I’m a little fuzzy on that.
We do not give our ancestors enough credit. They knew
their materials much better than we give them credit for.
It is my theory that copper tools could have been much
more effective if surfaced with copper oxides which can
reach up to 7 on the hardness scale.
I agree, there is much past knowledge that has been lost or destroyed.
The Lizzadro Museum of Lapidary Art, Elmhurst, Soon to be Oakbrook IL.
Has on display the equipment used in making snuff bottles from quartz and more.
A treadle driving an oscillating stick and abrasive sand.
Slow but sure.
If this works? Should link to a speicfic photo?
Beyond the vessel, on desplay, you can see part of the device, and use lots of imagination.
As both a physical chemist and an Archaeological Steward for the State of Texas (THC), I must say that the imbecile (or charlatan) who wrote this article most obviously never even took a high school course in chemistry -- or, if they did, they smoked pot during class!
Obviously, they never heard of the fact that, when one etches a line in an isotropic material, the line grows as much in width as it does in depth. A career in microelectronics convinces me that is always the case.
And, hard, tough (non-single-crystal natural stone is anisotropic. Controlled, precision etching of isotropic materials is challenging to control; etching anisotropic materials is basically uncontrollable. (Or, if it is single-crystal, is controlled by the crystal structure, itself.
Most of the harder, tougher natural stones are inhomogenous, polycrystalline agglomerations. To see what a "polished surface" attacking one with an acid would provide, they need only look at their first illustration -- or spill battery acid on concrete...
And, obviously they don't understand that HF is treacherous and dangerous stuff. If it gets on your skin, it diffuses inward and selectively attacks the calcium compounds in your bones -- while leaving little evidence on the skin's surface. Even IF primitive folk managed to form HF (certainly NOT from plants!), how long does anyone here think they would have survived handling it, trying to do what they could do better by bashing on the rock with another rock? (I'm also a lithic technologist and flintknapper; I've bashed a lot of rock...)
This article is high school "F" chemistry student BS!
Thanks wildbill for posting the topic, thanks Red Badger for the ping, and thanks TXnMA for the additional ping and the fascinating critique of the A-O article. The wikiwacky page on HF is also interesting, as is the EMS world page.
The Narmer Palette -- the earliest known written document -- was (apparently) quarried at Wadi Hammamat, although AFAIK, that's never been tested per se. Stones are hard, rubbing stones together in an economic context that is extravagant of labor (IOW< there's a lot available, and it is availed of) can and will (and has) yielded satisfactory results.
Thanks Openurmind. Of course, until the plant type specimens are available for study...
I think “Most If Not All Bronze Age Iron Came From Space” means the iron of that period came from meteoric sources, which are nearly pure iron, rather than be being mined as ore and smelted.
It looks more sensational than it is.
Archaeologists discover ancient tools that actually came from space
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3611365/posts
All Bronze Age Iron Came From Space, New Study Shows
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3613196/posts
King Tut’s Blade Made of Meteorite
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3435741/posts
I agree, There is a lot to be looked into with that science of rocks. But everyone is too busy selling books, Practicing Tenure, or digging too shallow to do it. lol
It drives me crazy friend... And it is why knowledge is being hidden from us with intent. When they closed down the Calico dig I personally had the opportunity to yell at a long time friend for doing it. :)
You mention "rubbing stones together" as a way to shape hard stone objects -- I agree!
Even better is the combination of processes known to us lithic technologists as, "pecking and grinding".
Actually, it's better described as repetitive alternation of two different processes or working techniques:
Final polishing is done by grinding away all traces of peck marks, and can produce beautifully-polished surfaces. Stone materials that responded well to these processes, such as "greenstone" or "bluestone" from MA's "Great Blue Hill" (home of PBS' WGBH) were highly prized, and were traded across vast distances. I once encountered a beautiful, 9" "P&G" bluestone celt on the Red River between TX & OK...
Here are some celts, (pointed-pommel stone adzes or axes) in various stages of the "P&G" manufacturing process:
Anyone who thinks they can achieve similar, controlled results with acid is probably smoking something else highly-prized by Native Americans! '-)
Hey, wait a minute -- the reason we don't know their secret ancient techniques is because The Powers That Be don't want us to know!!! /s
LOL!! Yup! '-)
The problem is we already know a whole lot more than the whackos think we do -- so they have to make up felgercarb...
:^)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
