Slave quarters of Sally Hemings, the maid who gave birth to six of Thomas Jefferson’s children found

The Daily Mail ^ | 7/3/17 | CECILE BORKHATARIA

[petitfour]

And after all the accusations were published ten years prior?

[GJones2]

> He’s telling you [the grandson speaking of the resemblance to Thomas Jefferson] what he saw with his own eyes, but then saying it couldn’t be so...

Come on now! That “it” makes the statement seem as if he’s denying what he saw with his own eyes. He saw the resemblance, but didn’t interpret it as you do.

This is the first time I’ve been angered by a response during this exchange (which otherwise has been carried on in a civil and conscientious manner — at least, among the persons I’ve been addressing). Randolph did not say that what he saw with his own eyes couldn’t be so. That’s a blatantly false interpretation of what was said.

He saw a close family resemblance to Thomas Jefferson, yes, but did not attribute it to Thomas Jefferson being the father. On the contrary, he denies that inference with great emphasis, and gives reasons why.

> But then the DNA settles the Carr question.

The DNA shows that a Carr was not the father of Eston, but it in no way rules out a Carr as the father of any of the other children.

[Bodleian_Girl]

Eston Hemings, the youngest son of Sally, was born in 1808. So during Jefferson’s presidency.

[Bodleian_Girl]

I think the accusations were an ongoing thing.

[Bodleian_Girl]

The Carr that they originally blamed lived in Maryland.

Don’t you ever wonder why, for all those years, they didn’t just blame one of the many skilled white artisans that Jefferson employed? After all, that surely would have been better than blaming her six white children on their extended family members, the Carr brothers.

The reason is simple. They didn’t because they couldn’t. Because the children looked so much like Thomas Jefferson!

[Political Junkie Too]

"I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times."

:-)

-PJ

[GJones2]

> “I’ve looked on a lot of women with lust. I’ve committed adultery in my heart many times.”

:-)

Me too. That’s one of the few things I share with Jimmy Carter. As I said earlier, I’m chaste in action but not in thought.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. ‘” [Matthew 5:27-28]

Maybe so, but you don’t get into as much trouble that way.

[GJones2]

You’re assuming that persons accusing others are lying, and just picking people to blame to avert blame from Thomas Jefferson. I think they observed conduct in those persons — who shared a family resemblance — that aroused their suspicion.

[Bodleian_Girl]

I have 3 siblings. We have some things alike, like the Cherokee slanted eyes of our grandmother.

Other than that, we are all extremely different. Brother is well over 6 feet tall. One sister is barely over five feet.

Two had straight hair, one of us has very curly hair, one had thick wavy hair. The hair colors vary, two born with brown that stayed brown. Two born blond that later turned brown in adulthood.

Our teeth are also very different. Two needed braces, two did not.

We have all long had children. The brother’s kids look like him and his wife. Even though he has sisters, his kids don’t look like his sisters.

My kids look nothing like my brother. My sisters daughters do not look like my brother.

So my own real life experience is telling me that Thomas Jefferson’s child by Sally Heming, who looked enough like him to be mistaken for him, was not fathered by a nephew of his.

The resemblance would not be very strong at all to Thomas Jefferson and his Carr nephews.

[GJones2]

I supposedly have 1/16th American Indian ancestry myself, on my mother’s side, yet my mother and sister had blond hair and blue eyes. I have brown hair (partially gray now) and brown eyes.

It depends on which genes are passed down. Evonne Goolagong, the tennis player of decades ago, was supposedly Australian aborigine in race (must have been mixed), but she didn’t look much like an aborigine to me. http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/evonne-goolagong-of-australia-at-wimbledon-circa-july-1971-goolagong-picture-id462775778

Australian aborigines — http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/28/0703198F000005DC-0-image-m-6_1422446578540.jpg

Yes, fathers and children often look alike (I don’t look like my parents, though, except in being very tall and skinny), but it’s a chance draw when genes are distributed to the next generation. For instance, brothers on average share half their genes. It’s by one half less likely — but quite possible — for a first cousin to look more like a person than one’s own child.

Then it’s by one half less likely again for the next generation (if I’m not mistaken in my calculations about genes). In any case we’re not talking about extremely remote chances, just something slightly less likely than what would be expected.

[Bodleian_Girl]

I suppose we’ve reached the end of the road. Thank you for the discussion!

[RegulatorCountry]

As off-putting as it may sound, traits and appearance are “fixed” via inbreeding in people just as any other mammal selectively bred whether due to unintentional genetic bottlenecks or due to other considerations, sometimes this has been intentional as in the instance of royals or people of great wealth looking to keep inheritance in the family. Those descendants can look alarmingly like the very old portrait hanging on the wall, particularly among males. I’ve mentioned my late grandmother’s attorney and his resemblance. I also had friends in my teens, identical twins, who looked exactly like their 2nd great grandfather whose portrait was hanging on the mantel of their parents’ home. I’d think this would be a distinct possibility among descendants of First Families and other early settlers, they’d have been there for 150 years or more by the era in question.

[GJones2]

If I recall correctly, such a resemblance was a clue in Conan Doyle’s The Hound of the Baskervilles and in some other mysteries (not noted until later).

[GJones2]

> I suppose we’ve reached the end of the road. Thank you for the discussion!

I too am about ready to move on to other things If not in full agreement about some of things we’ve discussed, at least we’ve succeeded in throwing more light on them. On the whole it’s been a good discussion. Thanks to you too for making it so.

[RegulatorCountry]

It’s not just a plot device, there are families like this and they’re not all wealthy or prominent, or at least not anymore they aren’t. Me, I’m too much of a mutt I guess, despite having a few illustrious ancestors I’ve also got some who were pretty darn common to the point of being from the wrong side of the tracks, and then a whole bunch who did OK in life but left no lasting impression other than their descendants. If I look like anyone facially it’s my maternal 2nd great grandmother and I’m male. I have my father’s build and bone structure. Look sort of Scottish apparently, or even Spanish since I’ve had Mexicans walk up and start speaking it to me thinking I’d speak the language as well. Cousins all over the map, fair, olive, freckled, blonde, brown, red, even almost black. You’d never know most of us were related from appearance alone. My closest male cousins paternally are the only ones anyone might think were related, oddly enough, but they’re browner than me.

[Bodleian_Girl]

It’s been a real pleasure.

I will let you in a little secret before I go: I tend to think that the Woodson family may have a case, based on his much older wife.

1. His wife was 8 years older than he. Suppose he simply claimed her children as his, never knowing that in 200 years, it might make a difference.

[SunkenCiv]

Note: this topic is from 7/03/2017. Thanks Bodleian_Girl.

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• What Did Lincoln Really Think of Jefferson? [2015]
• Taking Back Thomas Jefferson [2015]
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• The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson [Order the Book [2012]
• The Original Black First Lady: Sally Hemings (Maggot Gagger) [2009]
• After Jefferson, a Question About Washington and a Young Slave [2009]
• Court: Man can't name filly 'Sally Hemings' [2007]
• Bush Inspired by His Mexican Housekeeper [2006]
• Descendants of Jefferson, Slave Hemings Hold Reunion in Ohio [2005]
• The Jefferson DNA Case: Propaganda and Myth [2005]
• Horse owner sues in attempt to name filly Sally Hemings [2005]
• Giving Thomas Jefferson the Business: The Jefferson-Hemings Hoax [2003]
• The Selling of Sally Hemings [2003]
• A Family Get-Together of Historic Proportions (Thomas Jefferson & Sally Hemings?) [2003]
• Chat room spy irks descendants - woman says she wanted Hemings kin out of Jefferson reunion [2003]
• Nation: Thomas Jefferson's kin to vote on inclusion of slave family [2002]
• Scholars Overturn Case for Thomas Jefferson's Relationship with Slave Sally Hemings [2001]