Archaeologists find the largest amount of skulls at the most sacred temple of the Aztec empire

ArtDaily.org ^ | 10-7-2012 | Adriana Perez Licon

[Vince Ferrer]

And our elite educators criticize the evil Christians from Spain for conquoring them!

When the Spanish saw the atrocities and human sacrifice, they considered it their moral duty to destroy that culture. No "prime directive" back then.

[fabian]

Yes, the story has been all turned upside down.

[SunkenCiv]

GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach	join list or digest view topics view or post blog bookmark post a topic subscribe
Thanks Renfield. They had no Excedrin. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.

[Squawk 8888]

She’s talking about this as though it was just some fascinating medical procedure.

That kind of detachment is essential to preserve one's sanity. Medical examiners act much the same way.

[null and void]

All cultures are equal.

Some cultures are more equal than others...

[Yardstick]

Yes, Mel Gibson dealt brilliantly with the subject of the Aztecs and their subhuman brutality in Apocalypto. What's funny is he sold it to the liberal movie critics as a critique of American imperialism. It was released during the Iraq war and could be interpreted as an allegory with the Aztecs playing the role of American bully boy the weaker local tribes -- i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan. But that wasn't the movie's real message. It was really about how the coming of Western civilization, of Christendom, which the Conquistadors brought with them, put an end to the Aztec bloodlust and was in fact a good thing, contrary to prevailing PC opinion.

This is made almost explicit in the last scene where you see the Spanish galleons floating in the bay with their masts shaped like crosses. At that moment you realize that the movie's protagonist, the tribesman slave who slips free of the Aztecs' sacrificial system and spends the last third of the movie trying to get away, is going to be okay. That's when you know that Western civilization, with its regard for human life and safety and justice, has arrived, just in the nick of time. You know they're not going to let the Aztecs kill him. The movie is pretty close to a stroke of genius in my opinion.

[gleeaikin]

They did remove the heart, but also had skull racks, and gave the bodies to the people for meat. Somewhere I saw a drawing of a skull rack with a large number of skulls on it. I don’t know if it was a codex or something Spanish. When I studies in Mexico, I read concurrently Cortez’s 5 Letters to King Carlos V, and Bernal Diaz’ (his lieutenant) account of the conquest both in Spanish. Very interesting and very bloody.

[rusty schucklefurd]

re: “That kind of detachment is essential to preserve one’s sanity. Medical examiners act much the same way.”

Again, I would agree with you if we were talking about someone trying to accomplish some essential task to save lives, to solve a crime, or to give precise information in order to stop some terrible disease, criminal, or enemy.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that no where in the article do I get the sense from the archeologist or the writer of the article that they “get” the moral horror of what they have found or are describing.

It’s an intentional, I believe, action on their part to avoid making a value judgement of another culture - which is typical of the moral relativism of multiculturalism.

I’ve read and heard this before in academia as I sat in college classes taught by openly moral relativist professors. Also, unfortunately, I had to sit through classes on multiculturalism which, among other beliefs, makes it a point to NEVER judge the morality of any other culture past or present - UNLESS you’re talking about the Judeo-Christian cultural traditions of western Europe and the United States - THEN it’s not only Ok to judge, but to condemn the “arrogance” of western culture to dare call other cultures wrong or immoral - which, ironically, is what the multiculturalist and moral relativist does.

My point is, I think that is why this archeologist uses the tone and terminology that she does. She’s been taught to not judge the morality of this pre-Christian, Aztec culture because it’s “wrong” and “arrogant” to do so.

She’s not a doctor trying to accurately diagnose a disease, she’s describing the religious ritual practices of the Aztecs, and, at this point I could grant her and the author of the article a certain professional detachment in describing these practices with medical terms, but no where is the barbarism of these riturals ever implied or conceded. No where is the human value of the victims ever acknowledged - no, it’s not even brought up - they are just a part of the fascinating ways the Aztecs treated “the human body in their rituals”.

[rusty schucklefurd]

re: “Around the same period, Europe was hardly any less barbaric, with the soon-to-come slaughters of the members of the new religion of Protestantism by the Catholic incumbents, reprisal killings in revenge going vice-versa, the witch hunts, the Inquisition, all of which saw unparalleled bloodshed.”

I agree that barbarism exists everywhere. Barbarity is barbarity regardless of the place it occurs. We recognize that acts are barbaric based on our moral beliefs.

The brutal acts committed by so-called “Christian” Western European nations on each other are somewhat different from the Aztec culture in that every single act of violence was committed in violation of the very New Testament moral code they professed to believe in. While the barbaric acts of the Aztecs were not in violation of their religious beliefs at all - it was a part of their ritual.

Forcing conversion or torturing those who disagreed with one’s particular brand of Christianity is not taught EVER in the New Testament. The message of the Gospel was to be spread by going to all people and telling the story of Christ and His teachings, His death, burial, and resurrection - it was by speaking/preaching and living a moral Christian life before non-believers that was to hopefully bring them to conversion - not violence, torture, or other forms of intimidation.

The truth is, many of the so-called “religious” wars of Europe were clearly politically motivated. Religion was often used to motivate the common people, but the motives of the kings was usually merely ambition, pride, and greed.

The Inquisition is in direct opposition to Jesus’s and the Apostles teachings. It was pure evil used in Jesus’s name and I would hate to face God having committed such things using the Gospel as my “cover”. It won’t fly.

If we are going to judge western Christian nation’s culture’s barbarism, then the same should be done with ALL cultures. Wrong is wrong and right is right, but the moral relativist and the multiculturalist deny that (except, as I mentioned, when it comes to Christianity and western society).

[James C. Bennett]

By their fruits, you shall know them. And Europe has always been a killing field, with more deaths per square mile of settled territory than any other place on Earth. Violence and bloodshed has been intimate with Europe for aeons, as its history reveals.

Hindus could make the same defense, based on their scriptures:

 

"Religion shown in act of proud display

To win good entertainment, worship, fame,

Such—say I—is of Rajas, rash and vain.

  Religion followed by a witless will

To torture self, or come at power to hurt

Another,—’tis of Tamas, dark and ill.

  The gift lovingly given, when one shall say

“Now must I gladly give!” when he who takes

Can render nothing back; made in due place,

Due time, and to a meet recipient,

Is gift of Sattwan, fair and profitable.

  The gift selfishly given, where to receive

Is hoped again, or when some end is sought,

Or where the gift is proffered with a grudge,

This is of Rajas, stained with impulse, ill.

  The gift churlishly flung, at evil time,

In wrongful place, to base recipient,

Made in disdain or harsh unkindliness,

Is gift of Tamas, dark; it doth not bless!"  

Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: XVII, Lines 69-87.

 

 

"Four sorts of mortals know me: he who weeps,

Arjuna! and the man who yearns to know;

And he who toils to help; and he who sits

Certain of me, enlightened."

 

- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: VII, L: 53-56.

 

"Yet not by Vedas, nor from sacrifice,

Nor penance, nor gift-giving, nor with prayer

Shall any so behold, as thou hast seen!

Only by fullest service, perfect faith,

And uttermost surrender am I known

And seen, and entered into, Indian Prince!

Who doeth all for Me; who findeth Me

In all; adoreth always; loveth all

Which I have made, and Me, for Love’s sole end,

That man, Arjuna! unto Me doth wend."

 

- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: XI, L: 335-344.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Cling thou to Me!

Clasp Me with heart and mind! so shalt thou dwell

Surely with Me on high. But if thy thought

Droops from such height; if thou be’st weak to set

Body and soul upon Me constantly,

Despair not! give Me lower service! seek

To read Me, worshipping with steadfast will;

And, if thou canst not worship steadfastly,

Work for Me, toil in works pleasing to Me!

For he that laboreth right for love of Me

Shall finally attain! But, if in this

Thy faint heart fails, bring Me thy failure!"

 

- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: XII, L: 23-34.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  "There is right Action: that which—being enjoined—

Is wrought without attachment, passionlessly,

For duty, not for love, nor hate, nor gain.

There is vain Action: that which men pursue

Aching to satisfy desires, impelled

By sense of self, with all-absorbing stress:

This is of Rajas—passionate and vain.

There is dark Action: when one doth a thing

Heedless of issues, heedless of the hurt

Or wrong for others, heedless if he harm

His own soul—’tis of Tamas, black and bad!

  There is the rightful doer. He who acts

Free from selfseeking, humble, resolute,

Steadfast, in good or evil hap the same,

Content to do aright—he truly acts.

There is th’ impassioned doer. He that works

From impulse seeking profit, rude and bold

To overcome, unchastened; slave by turns

Of sorrow and of joy: of Rajas he!

And there be evil doers; loose of heart,

Low-minded, stubborn, fraudulent, remiss,

Dull, slow, despondent—children of the Dark."

 

- Bhagavad-Gita, Ch: XVIII, L: 75-96.

 

ARJUNA: LORD! of the men who serve Thee—true in heart—
As God revealed; and of the men who serve,
Worshipping Thee Unrevealed, Unbodied, far,
Which take the better way of faith and life?
KRISHNA: Whoever serve Me—as I show Myself—	5
Constantly true, in full devotion fixed,
These hold I very holy. But who serve—
Worshipping Me The One, The Invisible,
The Unrevealed, Unnamed, Unthinkable,
Uttermost, All-pervading, Highest, Sure—	10
Who thus adore Me, mastering their sense,
Of one set mind to all, glad in all good,
These blessed souls come unto Me.
Yet, hard
The travail is for whoso bend their minds	15
To reach th’ Unmanifest. That viewless path
Shall scarce be trod by man bearing his flesh!
But whereso any doeth all his deeds,
Renouncing self in Me, full of Me, fixed
To serve only the Highest, night and day	20
Musing on Me—him will I swiftly lift
Forth from life’s ocean of distress and death
Whose soul clings fast to Me. Cling thou to Me!
Clasp Me with heart and mind! so shalt thou dwell
Surely with Me on high. But if thy thought	25
Droops from such height; if thou be’st weak to set
Body and soul upon Me constantly,
Despair not! give Me lower service! seek
To read Me, worshipping with steadfast will;
And, if thou canst not worship steadfastly,	30
Work for Me, toil in works pleasing to Me!
For he that laboreth right for love of Me
Shall finally attain! But, if in this
Thy faint heart fails, bring Me thy failure! find
Refuge in Me! let fruits of labor go,	35
Renouncing all for Me, with lowliest heart,
So shalt thou come; for, though to know is more
Than diligence, yet worship better is
Than knowing, and renouncing better still
Near to renunciation—very near—	40
Dwelleth Eternal Peace!
Who hateth nought
Of all which lives, living himself benign,
Compassionate, from arrogance exempt,
Exempt from love of self, unchangeable	45
By good or ill; patient, contented, firm
In faith, mastering himself, true to his word,
Seeking Me, heart and soul; vowed unto Me,—
That man I love! Who troubleth not his kind,
And is not troubled by them; clear of wrath,	50
Living too high for gladness, grief, or fear,
That man I love! Who, dwelling quiet-eyed,
Stainless, serene, well-balanced, unperplexed,
Working with Me, yet from all works detached,
That man I love! Who, fixed in faith on Me,	55
Dotes upon none, scorns none; rejoices not,
And grieves not, letting good and evil hap
Light when it will, and when it will depart,
That man I love! Who, unto friend and foe
Keeping an equal heart, with equal mind	60
Bears shame and glory, with an equal peace
Takes heat and cold, pleasure and pain; abides
Quit of desires, hears praise or calumny
In passionless restraint, unmoved by each,
Linked by no ties to earth, steadfast in Me,	65
That man I love! But most of all I love
Those happy ones to whom ’tis life to live
In single fervid faith and love unseeing,
Eating the blessèd Amrit of my Being!
Here endeth Chapter XII. of the Bhagavad-Gîtâ,	70
entitled “Bhakityôgô,” or “The Book of
the Religion of Faith.”

[Captain Rhino]

If you want a first-hand account, read “The True History of the Conquest of New Spain” by Bernal Diaz. It is still in print as a Penguin Classic.

Diaz was a conquistador with Cortes from the formation of the expedition in Cuba to the reduction of the Aztec cities in the north after the final fall of Tenochtitlán (Mexico City).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_D%C3%ADaz_del_Castillo

[1010RD]

And Europe has always been a killing field, with more deaths per square mile of settled territory than any other place on Earth.

Carefully worded nonsense statement.

[fabian]

Great..thank you. I will order it. I believe it was Diaz and some of Cortez’’s other officers that went out further south and freed some of south America from the savageness of the Inca’s and others, right?

[rusty schucklefurd]

re: “By their fruits, you shall know them. And Europe has always been a killing field, with more deaths per square mile of settled territory than any other place on Earth.”

Your quote of a saying of Jesus is a nice touch of irony (”By your fruits. . .). Anyway, I’m curious how anyone could know all these statistics with any real accuracy from ancient to modern times across all peoples, nations, and cultures world-wide. This sounds a bit like global warming statistics.

I’m not doubting your sincerity, nor that the west has not had its share of killing - but worse than anywhere else?? I doubt that. Whatever person, group, or academic study this is coming from - I would check into their evidence, agenda and motives for saying such a thing.

re: “Hindus could make the same defense, based on their scriptures”

We weren’t discussing Hindu religion, we were talking about the Aztecs. But, let’s take the Hindu scriptures you’ve posted at face value that teach that murder, violence, and bloodshed would be a violation of these particular scriptures. My response would be, how does this have any relevance to my statement that Christianity does not condone forced conversions?

Are you saying that because Hindu scriptures also disdain murder and violence and could make the same defense as Christianity against those who commit atrocities in the name of their religion that my statement is untrue?

[Ronaldus Magnus III]

I’m so glad someone mentioned the author’s full name Bernal Diaz Del Castillo. At the end of his life, Castillo was blind & poor. He wanted to leave his family something, so he dictated his memoir. A most amazing account of the Conquest. The other best book is not so well known: “The Hummingbird & the Hawk.” I will find the author later. There was an Aztec General, Tlacael I believe, this General served under Montezuma I AND Montezuma II. With these two books, you learn about all the factors that contributed to the conquest. Not just the technological advantages, guns, sabres, horses. Cortez arrived at a time of the Aztec calendar that predicted doom. Cortez was of course pale in comparison to the natives. A previous culture had a ‘pale’ hero who departed from the shore where Cortez arrived (Veracruz today). Some believed the hero had returned. The Aztecs had many enemies. They used one culture, the Tlachclalans, to practice attacks and war, but they never completely conquered and and defeated them. When Cortez and his soldiers arrived, the Tlachclalans were ready, willing, and able to join Cortez in the conquest.Gosh, there is so much more. Some believed that the horse and the man on the horse were one creature.

I will write more later. The Hummingbird & the Hawk is one of the best books ever.

[Yollopoliuhqui]

Keep in mind that the Aztec practice of human sacrifice was, at one time, universal throughout the world, and not only where you had an advanced civilization. ALL religions at that time were synonymous with human sacrifice. This was done to propitiate sky gods who had rained death upon the Earth at one point in history, quite possibly the Younger Dryas event which destroyed most life in North America and wreaked destruction around the globe.

The link between sky gods and planets is no accident. Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and Venus were Roman names for both gods and planets. The same planets were also known as gods in all other religions where one finds an inescapable link between religion and astronomy. The Mayans and Aztecs main deity, Quetzalcoatl or “Feathered Serpent” was also the name for the planet Venus in their astronomy and was observed very closely with fear and trepidation.

The ancient primary pantheon, the old gods, were the planets we see today in more distant orbits. Back then, they loomed large in the heavens and their electrical interactions via plasma streamers and discharges transfixed and awed the ancient world, animated ancient rock art and caused humans to study the heavens for portents of another destructive event.

Supplication to Inana:

“Like a dragon you have deposited venom on the foreign lands. When like Ickur you roar at the earth, no vegetation can stand up to you. As a flood descending upon (?) those foreign lands, powerful one of heaven and earth, you are their Inana.

13-19Raining blazing fire down upon the Land, endowed with divine powers by An, lady who rides upon a beast...”

http://www.thunderbolts.info/
http://sites.google.com/site/dragonstormproject/
www.holoscience.com
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/resource.htm
http://www.crosswinds.net/~velikovsky/
www.plasma-universe.com/
http://cosmictusk.com/

[bubbacluck]

I just ordered a used paperback for $4. Looking forward to reading it.