Posted on 06/27/2011 2:05:19 AM PDT by nickcarraway
Last year in Austin I saw two cops take down a loud mouth, aggressive drunk guy and cuff him in a New York minute. No taser, glock or beating. No punching, jeering or screaming at him like hot dogs even though he was acting the abusive fool like only a drunk can do. It happened so fast I did not even see the moves they made. They were well trained, self disciplined professionals - like most cops around here are. Although we do have some meat heads, too. Texans are conservatives and they don’t tend to cheer on incompetence.
I’m not going to grace you with any more argument over the glory of cops who are so lowly in character and pitiful in training that they would use a taser on a drunk man for playing music too loud in his own residence.
This isn't rocket science. Nor a strawman argument. Just a Monday Morning Quarterback discussion; concerning an LEO who might have killed a fellow citizen in the line of duty with a less-than-lethal device. You, in particular, believe it was a case of excessive force; I'm trying to understand your frame of reference.
So keryandil, as a person obviously well schooled in non-jackboot licking Law Enforcement tactics; how does LEO keryandil handle the intoxicated, non-compliant person who just took a swing at you?
Cheers,
OLA
Look, I know they teach you in academy these days to be drama queens about the "dangers" of police work, but I don't subscribe to the glorification of the Holy Trinity of the Left (teachers, police, firefighters), so you can lose the "dramatic" tone of the "poor beleaguered officer" in your posts.
1. There was a number of officers at the scene (from the article)
2. 1 drunk versus numerous beefcake - no contest (see SaraJohnson's post above)
3. If you touch a Kettenhund or his hound these days, it's an automatic felony. That's tool enough to deal with a fool like this drunk. I could stand there with my hands down and let him beat on me till my buds bodily swarmed him. You don't seem to understand that the laws have been steadily ratcheted up since the time of the founding of the Republic, till the Founders wouldn't recognize the joint. They didn't have a full-time police force that would pursue "transgressors" like the Furies of Hell armed with a blank checkbook.
So, your strawman drunk beats up me & my three sidekicks? Kettenhund Command sends a company of beefcake. The strawman drunk beats up the company? Kettenhund Command sends a battalion. And on and on and on, all on the taxpayer dime.
So, your little drama isn't all that much of a drama, because the drunk always ends up stomped into the ground or dead, whether or not any Kettenhunde are "injured or killed in the making of this drama".
What did they do for the cop that got shot at the stoplight? 170 LEOs in the taskforce? 300 LEOs swarmed Tucson after Giffords got shot? You guys got WAY too much time & money on your hands.
In the photos with the article, I counted 4 LEOs, and there's a fire truck and an EMT vehicle. What went through the LEO's head in those few seconds? "Do me & my crew want some sweet OT?"
I personally monitored 8-10 law enforcement vehicles fishing for some drowned idiot for A MONTH, till he finally floated, and a civilian spotted him. The LEOs were there EVERY FRICKING DAY in the AM when I went to work, and stayed all day till after I left in the PM. That was some sweet play-work. All kinds of practice on the taxpayer dime, out in the beautiful sunshine.
Last year in Austin I saw two cops take down a loud mouth, aggressive drunk guy and cuff him in a New York minute. No taser, glock or beating. No punching, jeering or screaming at him like hot dogs even though he was acting the abusive fool like only a drunk can do. It happened so fast I did not even see the moves they made. They were well trained, self disciplined professionals - like most cops around here are.
Exactly.
Also, read my response just above.
BTW, Piqua, Ohio is this little town of 20,000 where apparently they have to use the Tase constantly, because of the out-of-control peasants in the area. I think it's just practice, myself...
Ultimately cities and towns with sadistic and lawless police organizations will be meeting their brutal and lawless creation on the other side. See Mexico.
Conservatives can not sit by and allow this to happen. This is the opposite of America’s exceptionalism - the spirit of liberty and the rule of law.
Being an old fashion kind of person, when a neighbor asks not to do something that disturbs them, we try not to do it. Guess that's just a rural Ohio culture thing.
We don't know if neighbors first spoke with the intoxicated Patrick Miller, but when the Piqua LEO's asked Miller to turn down the music, he turns it up instead.
In real life, Miller might be an all knowing, anonymous coward snarking from DU; then trolling "strawman" on FR. All from the safety of a back room apartment in his Mommy's house. Miller seems like a jerk cut from whole cloth.
SaraJohnson's described Texan LEO street take down of a passive non-compliant in the anecdotal could read like excessive use of force. So we might agree to disagree on that assessment.
Returning to Piqua, from the story, we don't know if Miller is blocking the doorway which removes the clean take down option. And take down may be outside the scope of Piqua SOP, these procedures are all attorney driven. When poorly performed, LEO's get injured. Result: workman's compensation claims and additional overtime absorbed by the citizens of Piqua. And Miller still ends up injured just as bad, or worse.
Still giving you the benefit of doubt. But not the magical fairy dust tool "automatic felony" that instantly renders an active aggressive combative drunk instantly compliant whenever riding unicorns. So what do you do?
Cheers,
OLA
America was founded by "non-compliants".The American Police State has crept upon us so stealthily over the last few decades that most people haven't noticed it.
Most of my conservative friends don't even see it. I told my friend's wife the story about the drunk who was supposedly suicidal in Illinois (his pal called the authorities) and the authorities responded with a force of nearly 100 LEOs for a "well-being check" and an evacuation of a dozen neighboring houses, only to find out the guy was watching the drama from a nearby bar, talking to the police negotiator on his cell.
I pointed out that they kind of over-reacted, and she felt that he should pay the tab for the over-reaction.
If they didn't have a blank checkbook, and a blank "moral authority" checkbook, they wouldn't over-react, but even fiscal conservatives aren't noticing the clues of an out-of-control standing army in our midst.
You guys need to dial down the Nanny State crap.
Years and years ago, we used to do stuff that would rack up a dozen felonies now, but at the time were fairly innocuous. We reflect on those times, and realize that we have to hide at our properties in the woods to get away from the ever-increasing Blue Nannies. We also realize they'll eventually show up out there, too - "for our own good".
SaraJohnson’s described Texan LEO street take down of a passive non-compliant in the anecdotal could read like excessive use of force. So we might agree to disagree on that assessment.
Good try in mistating what I witnessed.
That drunk was anything but passive, which is the main reason he as taken down and cuffed like he was. I saw him aggressively screaming and waving his arms at people walking past him, and I saw him shove a man, and was just about to cross the street when the police paid him a visit. That is why I was watching what happened to him.
It was a rodeo show, baby. We had a basturd bucking bull taken down and lassoed in a New York minute by PROFESSIONAL police officers. While down he huffed and puffed and cussed and cursed...to no avail.
When the police wagon showed up, he was flailing his legs like a kook so he got his legs secured and he was tossed like a side of beef into the back at taken to the jail. He was not waving around a weapon, just like the man was unarmed in his house playing the music too loud. Otherwise, it would have been justifiably suicide by cop.
And by the way. This argument you are engaging in is not one of the worthiness of laws - whether the laws are just or not. Laws are passed by politicans and argued in courts so any complaints you have about laws go to politicans and judges, not police officers. Police officers only enforce the law within the limits of the constitution. They are not responsible for stupid laws your elected officals pass and impose upon the people. If you want laws changed, go to the political arena and not to cops. You don’t blame them for laws you don’t like.
Yeah, we get it - he's just trying to justify his paycheck, bennies & sweet pension.
If the peasants start asking too many questions about why there's a swarm of angry blue bees everywhere they go & who's paying for all that buzzing, the funding for one leg of the Holy Trinity will jeopardized.
That's OK, though - now they're trying to get "Lefty Sainthood" for prison guards.
And by the way. This argument you are engaging in is not one of the worthiness of laws - whether the laws are just or not. Laws are passed by politicians and argued in courts so any complaints you have about laws go to politicians and judges, not police officers. Police officers only enforce the law within the limits of the constitution. They are not responsible for stupid laws your elected officials pass and impose upon the people. If you want laws changed, go to the political arena and not to cops. You don’t blame them for laws you don’t like.
Your point is well taken. Police are INDEED not responsible for the sedimentary accretion of the laws. I guess I'm advancing the "But I was ENTHUSIASTICALLY following the Zero Tolerance orders!" argument.
The Roman Empire had the same problem with the sedimentary accretion of laws over time. In their case, it was just a societal thing. I would tend to argue "knowing malice" as one of the causes of OUR legal sedimentary accretion, being as how we have Roman history as a guide to this particular problem.
As for going to the political arena to get the laws changed, the politicians are EXPERTS at rope-a-dope, AND they're getting a paycheck for it, too. Us peasants have both hands tied behind our backs in that arena.
I could relate a particular anecdote or two illustrating that point, but suffice it to say that I've been on this forum since it began, and I've learned a LOT about the ways of the political process.
This:
61 posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 11:20:01 PM by SaraJohnson
I saw two cops take down a loud mouth, aggressive drunk guy and cuff him
Morphs to this:
68 posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 1:25:22 PM by SaraJohnson
I saw him aggressively screaming and waving his arms at people walking past him, and I saw him shove a man...It was a rodeo show, baby. We had a basturd bucking bull taken down and lassoed in a New York minute by PROFESSIONAL police officers. When the police wagon showed up...he was tossed like a side of beef into the back at taken to the jail
So after a citizen is handcuffed, unable to protect themselves against a fall; your subject LEO's toss that handcuffed citizen around like a side of beef into the back of the paddy wagon. You judge such behavior as your personal gold standard of professionalism?
You might want to consider a fanciful career in dinosaur media journalistism, Soros is hiring.
Anyone short of a know-it-all on this subject matter might have investigated Use of force continuum" at Wikipedia to answer my role playing question.
Now I've done your homework...
Fail.
OneLoyalAmerican wrote: Let me get this straight. Your failure to communicate is my fault?
This:
SaraJohnson wrote:61 posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 11:20:01 PM by SaraJohnson I saw two cops take down a loud mouth, aggressive drunk guy and cuff him
Your initial response: "SaraJohnson's described Texan LEO street take down of a passive non-compliant in the anecdotal could read like excessive use of force. So we might agree to disagree on that assessment."
I was trying to figure out in which Bizarro World "a loud mouth, aggressive drunk guy" was "a passive non-compliant" when I suddenly realized it was the World of Police State America, where we're all in a giant concentration camp guarded by a legal system that winks at the kind of criminal thugs that ran Stalin's gulags and bullied the Jews in the Polish camps.
In order to keep people from noticing the noise of the broken imprisoning machine, its defenders have to bend the facts whenever they're inconvenient.
She pegged you.
Own it.
Thanks for that response. I can’t believe there is still an argument for the glory of an Amerian police officer using a taser on and hospitalizing a citizen in his home for the cause of playing his music too loud.
Today I was reading an article out of Chicago concerning police being dispatched to a beach where mobs were fighting and attacking people a few weeks ago. It featured a picture of the police officers standing in a group on the beach. Every one of them was obese. There is no way these out of shape cows are able do anything without the assistance of police brutality.
That might be one of the problems - out of shape cops who know they are vulnerable and weak and are therefore afraid of the public. They used to have weight standards to be a police officer knowing out of shape cops are a danger to themselves, their partners and the public. There is definantly a lack of self discipline, skills and professionalism today. And endless excuses for it.
Johnandrhonda, I am sorry for overreacting about police brutality to you. I am on a rip about it right now because I see it as being out of control.
Stupidly drunk people running his/her loud mouth, ie. aggressive assertions that anyone defending police are Nazi's, jack-boots, worried about concentration camps, gulags, US police states, etc.; still fits the definition of a passive behavior.
Four types of behavior:
1. Passive Compliant
2. Passive Non-Compliant/Resistor
3. Active Non-Compliant/Resistor
4. Active Aggressor
When the loud mouth threatens to harm others, the situation changes to active; starts swinging, aggressor.
No longer doing your homework for you. Dictionary/Wikipedia. It's your friend.
Teaching pigs to sing?
OLA
Speaking of annoyances, I am now sitting in the American Airlines First Class lounge in Heathrow. A young couple came in a few minutes ago with a small 2-yr old in tow.
The noise-maker is yammering away, squawking, crying and acting like any normal 2-yr old. Sheesh, it is 0627hrs local and most everyone in here are (quiet) business travelers and these people bring in a brat and disturb the peace and quiet of the lounge. They are now letting the noise-maker run around the lounge as it squeals and yammers away.
What is truly disturbing is the fact that they are bringing said noise-maker into First Class on the jet. . . thereby imposing their noise-maker on everyone else in a confined environment. Great, I spend my BIG BUCKS for a quiet comfortable flight and end up with a noise-maker shrieking and yammering.
Heck, if an adult behaved like this noise-maker, he would be ejected from the plane, but yet, we have a noise-maker brat and it is supposed to be tolerated?
A long week, a really long week, and I was looking forward to resting on a quiet flight home, not being bothered by calls and meetings. This flight will be anything but quiet and restful.
Oh, and. . .” If you disagree then allow me to beat on a garbage can lid with a baseball bat while trying to listen to TV, or take a nap, or just enjoy a few minutes of silence.”
EXACTLY!
Four types of peasant behavior:
1. Passive Compliant Peasant
2. Passive Non-Compliant/Resistor Peasant
3. Active Non-Compliant/Resistor Peasant
4. Active Aggressor Peasant
I was reading over on Second City Cop how the new Chitcago Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy doesn't feel he has to do the whole "law" thing when it comes to him & his family and friends. Fascinating.
DAYTON, Ohio (CN) - Dayton police "mistook" a mentally handicapped teenager's speech impediment for "disrespect," so they Tasered, pepper-sprayed and beat him and called for backup from "upward of 20 police officers" after the boy rode his bicycle home to ask his mother for help, the boy's mom says...
Dayton is about 20-30 miles from Piqua...
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