Is Mormonism Christian? by Late Richard John Neuhaus

November 24, 2009

[metmom]

What in the literary style of the writing gives the impression that there should be a change in the way it’s read?

Usually, the reason is a matter of personal preference, generally that someone thinks that it happening the way it was written, doesn’t make sense or some such excuse.

[Godzilla]

At any rate, it's such a petty criticism I find it amazing anyone would actually make it.

In part, all are accurate. But I favor #2 principally because of HOW the text of the passage describes the basin AND how close the CRUDE estimation was at face value of the incorrectly associated measurements. The passage said the diameter was measured from lip to lip. It further states that 1) it was flared out like a "lily" and not a smooth edge but with some ornate designs. Since it flares out, it is unlikely that it was used for the circumference measurement a couple of verses later. Second, the circumference measurement would be valuable only for volume estimations and to infer they measured it along a flared out rim versus the main body of the basin stretches credibility to the breaking point. Third, note the thickness of the basin is one hand width. An approximation for a cubit being 18 inches and a hand 4 inches. Here is a picture that depicts what was being described in 1 Kings

If a simple assumption (supported by the general description of the text and designs of the period found via archaeology) that the width of the flare out was one hand (4 inches)(equal to the side thickness of the bowl), that would yield a main body circumference of 180"-8"(both sides of diameter)= 172". The circumference then is 540" and to estimate pi - 540"/172" = 3.1395 or essentially approximated at 3.14. If one wants to do the math, the depth (5 cubits) with an adjusted internal diameter (adjusting for the two sides of 4" 'hands' = 164") would yield a volume equivalent to the 2000 'bath' volumes.

It takes no revelation from God, just some common sense reading of the text and not jumping to baseless conclusions that are unjustified by either the text as well as technology of the period.

[Godzilla]

He will probably say something like “Well, I didn’t believe the Bible and told others not to either. And I spent a lot of time insulting people.”

I would prefer he provide the answer, however, given his posting history on this thread, elsie will learn why smith hated Presbyterians before we learn on what basis he makes his claim to be Christian.

[Godzilla]

Hey, Bruce Lee, where's the answer to the question I asked in post 1,024? Let's hear it.

Crickets

[SZonian]

That’s some tough “love”. What’s he doing now?

I guess “Christians” are the enemy, yet the lds want to be considered Christian. What a conundrum they must find themselves in.

SZ

[Godzilla]

woops, caught an error. Make that 172 inches the adjusted diameter that the circumference measurement was based upon, not the circumference.

[Mr. Silverback]

:-)

[reaganaut]

Well you think that man is not the son of God of the Most High as I have said over and over....

As far as Brigham Young a theory is not scripture just one ponderings!

I remind all

a prophet was only a prophet when acting as such.

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You are correct. I do not believe that mankind is naturally born sons of God. The Bible tells us that. The Bible also tells us that by believing in Christ’s sacrifice for our sins, we BECOME (by adoption) sons of God.

Who are you to say if what BY said is scripture or not? Millions of faithful LDS lived and died believing BY’s doctrine that Adam was God. What about them? Do they make it to the CK, or are they now apostates? BY was acting as prophet when he taught it.

“I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . “ (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).

“A prophet is only a prophet when acting as such” is very convenient way to set aside the problems of LDS doctrine.
So when exactly is Monson acting as Prophet, and when is he speaking as a man? Do you know? Does any LDS know?

(crickets)

[reaganaut]

Oh and one more BY quote about his teaching being scripture:

“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95).

I was taught the Adam/God doctrine at BYU and know many LDS who still believe/teach it.

[reaganaut]

I would prefer he provide the answer, however, given his posting history on this thread, elsie will learn why smith hated Presbyterians before we learn on what basis he makes his claim to be Christian.

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Lol. That may very well be true. Amazing that someone could claim to be a Christian yet refuse to say why he thinks that.

[reaganaut]

What’s he doing now?

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To my knowledge (we have mutual friends) he is attending a Christian church in the SLC area.

[SZonian]

When the prophet speaks, he speaks “on behalf” of their god. That is doctrinal within lds circles. Essentially, what they say is considered scripture. All mormons are taught that and to deny it is to be considered an apostate. Do you throw away your General Conference Ensigns because the talks the prophet and GA’s gave are not considered scripture or do you save them for scriptural reference?

What say you Resty? Are you an apostate because you deny one of your prophets spoke “on behalf” of god and what he said is not considered “scripture”?

SZ

[SZonian]

Good for him.

Time to go to bed, work tomorrow.

Cheers!

SZ

[restornu]

For some reason you are obsessed which is not of the Lord.

I left mainstream religion in 1972 because even though there are good folks who are satisfied with their choice I knew it was only a half of loaf!

Why those who leave LDS always feel the need to kick against the prick is weird.

You keep posting things to assure yourself you did the right thing!

I know every canard you are going to produce and then some I learn most of it when I was first an investigator!

Have a good evening!:)

[magritte]

Actually, I didn’t reference “literary style”, actually has nothing to do with it...didn’t know you weren’t familiar with Maimonides...you might have a look at his “Guide for the Perplexed” or at least at some of the passages from it...his work on Genesis is superlative and life-changing...magritte

[count-your-change]

And it’s unlikely that it would be filled to the very brim....so given the shape, etc. yeah, that could easily be the case too. Given a choice between the critics and the Bible I’ll go with the Bible.

[reaganaut]

Those who leave the “mainstream” do so because they didn’t really have a relationship with Jesus, that is the only reason someone would join the LDS.

Those of us who have left and found the real Jesus (the one of the Bible), tell others so that they may come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

I don’t need to assure myself I did the right thing, I KNOW I did, it has been proven over and over again in my life and faith. Going back to the LDS would be like a dog returning to his vomit.

And I am sure I have a few things up my sleeve you don’t know about.

C’mon resty, ABANDON SHIP! Jump off that “Titanic” that is the LDS church and into the arms of Christ.

[reaganaut]

For some reason you are obsessed which is not of the Lord.

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And, OBTW, I am obsessed with that which IS OF THE LORD. That is why I am no longer Mormon. I no longer follow Joseph Smith, I follow Jesus Christ and Him alone.

[NoRedTape]

Meanwhile; back on topic:

Is Mormonism Christian?

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"The answer is still NO."
=========

Most certainly. The mormons want to be called "Christian", however, they are the furthest from that definition.

They know it.

They play the charade as best they can.

They are horrifically misguided; They are in a CULT; They are not Christians.

But they are good people. Their "religion" is not their fault, it is Joe's Myth formulated by the fake profit named Joe Smith.

Any mormon can simply go here for the whole truth. HERE...............

And they will be left alone if they drop the "Christian" charade.

By the way...........where is planet Kolob?????

[Diamond]

I believe the garments the King wants us to wear are the fruits of the Holy Spirit. In Galatians 5:22–23 Saint Paul names them: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

I concur.

Cordially,