Explaining the Shooting of Governor John Connally

Shown on FreeRepublic for the first time. | October 25, 2006 | Bill Charleston

[The KG9 Kid]

Address the post at #220 where the Warren Commission and an indepedent research laboratory concluded zero misfires in thousands of rounds of ammunition.

[1L]

First, I said jam, not misfire, and second, consider this, from a refutation of Posner:

"Indeed, as Summers, Conspiracy, pp. 46-47, observes, "The original Mannlicher-Carcano [alleged to be Oswald's rifle] was an uncooperative piece of evidence, as army experts discovered after the assassination. As a spokesman put it, one of them 'had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first firing exercise. . . ' He added that, as newcomers to the weapon, 'The pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target . . .' An assassin using the Mannlicher-Carcano in Dealey Plaza may, of course, have known the quirks of his weapon, but this account suggests the gun was hardly ideal for feats of marksmanship." O'Toole reports the commission "also heard rifle experts testify that the telescopic sight could be easily knocked out of adjustment and that this would make accurate shooting with the gun unlikely, that shims had to be inserted to elevate and move the sight before the commission's three marksmen could fire the rifle accurately, and that, even using stationary targets, expert marksmen were unable to equal Oswald's alleged accuracy" (Assassination Tapes, p. 27). No doubt Posner has not read them either. He thus commits a nice example of the fallacy of equivocation: the tests were not done with Oswald's rifle in its original condition, because it was a terrible weapon. When he says "the FBI ran Oswald's gun through a series of rigorous tests", it was a reconstructed weapon that was not available to Oswald, so it is difficult to see how they concluded it was accurate."

Your source doesn't indicate "thousands of rounds" as you assert, but rather less than a thousand. Further, the tests measure the ammunition, not the specific condition of the rifle.

It is possible, I guess, that Oswald shot Kennedy with another rifle, or perhaps with the Mauser reported found "first" in the TSBD. That doesn't explain the head shot, but that's another issue. The MC was a piece of junk, and Oswald could have gotten a lot better rifle here in Texas a lot easier than ordering one from Chicago.

[The KG9 Kid]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/carcano/index.asp

Sorry, nice rifle. Ever fired one?

[raygun]

As cited in linky #3 of post #209 regarding the operational capabilities of the rifle reputedly used by Oswald, i.e., Mannlicher Carcano bolt-action:

[the author alleges being an]...owner of one of these weapons, [and] can personally confirm that it is not as bad as some critics have made it out to be. It is reasonably accurate, and easy to fire. In the hands of even a mediocre shooter, and with a little practice, it could certainly be a deadly weapon, entirely capable of delivering a fatal bullet from the 90 yards that separated the alleged sniper's nest from the President, at the instant of the explosive head shot.

Originally designed in the 19th century, it has a very stiff bolt action. Even when well lubricated, the act of ejecting a spent cartridge and reloading is awkward and slow. Extensive testing, carried out by FBI firearms experts as well as by the HSCA (House Select Committee on Assassinations), thirteen years later, confirmed that even expert riflemen generally required three or more seconds to reload, aim, and fire the weapon.

By the way, this issue should not be confused with the ancient argument that Oswald couldn't have fired all the shots in the roughly, five and one half seconds, the Warren Commission originally suggested. In more recent times, compelling arguments have been advanced, suggesting that the shots were spread out over a longer time span, more in the range of eight seconds. My own research suggests that this is probably correct, and that undoubtedly, this weapon was capable of producing three shots in such a time span. But the issue here is, whether shots were fired too closely together to have both come from this weapon. To answer that question, we must first determine what its limitations are. Fortunately, a great deal of testing has been done, to precisely resolve that question.

According to Warren Commission reports Vol. III, P. 404, Robert Frazier, an FBI firearms expert, testified concerning the firing rate of the MC bolt-action rifle. When one examines his testimony, keep in mind that the first shot doesn't take any time - the weapon is already loaded and aimed when the first shot was fired. Therefore, only the last two shots fired are actually of any consequence.

In his essay, Harris says:

But this became a moot question, when after repeated test firings, eight police sharpshooters and two committee staffers, aiming with both the telescopic scope and without it, were never able to hit their targets twice within that brief time span. There was just not enough time to operate the bolt action and acquire the target.⁴

The reference to footnote #4 is:

4. Despite the failure of every shooter in every test, the HSCA still concluded that Oswald could have carried out the feat, since there were a couple of near-misses.

This strikes me as author-opionion; I would've been been seriously shot down by my English composition instructor for such transgression.

That notwithstanding, and nevertheless, there is no citation supporting that statement. An inference needs to be made with respect to the previous two paragraphs, wherein in the latter of the two it was stated HCSA testing was done (and the former it was testing done by the author).

It all sounds pretty scientific to the technically undiscerning and uninitiated concerning the author's plea to set aside objections, and to examine the rifle's limitations. However, sloppy writing at best, and murky facts in the worst case, suggest to me that the writer's emotions are most leading the gunsight.

[BILL_C]

Are you suggesting that Gov. Connally was shot in the wrist 5 seconds after Pres. Kennnedy was shot in the back?

How do you know how long Gov. Connally held his hat after the back shot to Kennedy?

REPLY:

That's EXACTLY what happened. At 18.3 frames/second, you have the shot to JFK's back at approximately frame 220 (where we see JFK emerging from behind the sign with his hands to neck with the back shot and the neck shot complete) then we have for over 5 seconds John Connally TURNING around in his seat as NO MAN could do IF he had a back wound/chest wound as he did.

I put a couple of video links on the thread. The first two are of the Zapruder Film. Don't watch JFK as they come out from behind the sign, watch Connally. AS JFK is reacting to his wounds, watch Connally react to what is a minor wound, a bullet fragment ONLY to his left leg. You see him raise his hat and look toward his left.

Then Connally starts the turn to look over his RIGHT shoulder, he doesn't see anything, so he turns back to look over his LEFT shoulder but he never makes it.

As Connally is turning (and facing forward) the shot to JFK's head at Z=313 occurs, and the men in the front seats start to duck forward at Z=319. At Z=325, something different happens to Connally. His had SNAPS over as he is struck in the back with the bullet that was aimed at JFK's head. It misses because JFK is knocked violently to the rear and his left.

Then Connally is knocked forward by the force of the bullet.

The Warren Commission said that Nellie Connally pulled John over at that point and you can even hear one of the doctors say Nellie saved John's Life by pulling him over. Hardly possible as she could NOT have made him move like that.

So here we have a simple solution to HOW Gov. Connally was wounded. Now I only showed explained TWO shots to Connally.

THIS works and can the other shots can be explained.

Somebody would have talked is an argument frequently made, but they did. IF YOU WANT to get away with a huge lie like this, then simply IGNORE THE WITNESSES. It's a playbook you can NOT allow a goverment to have.

So, how come this is the FIRST time you've ever seen this talked about? That's now the interesting part to me!

Regards

[BILL_C]

And they're both wrong. The Zapruder film shows that Connally's suit lapel is moved by the same bullet that had passed through JFK and Connally.

REPLY:

Actually the SUIT LAPEL argument is wrong too. IF you'll look a few frames past that event you'll see his lapel bounces out BECAUSE Connally is raising his arms in response to the bullet fragment wound to his left leg, it is NOT the bullet and could NOT be the bullet that hit Kennedy. You'll see JFK is already raising his arms to his throat when the lapel bounces out, too late for a bullet to cause that movement. Failure Analysis and Dale Meyers both said this is a new discovery in the 2003 40th anniversary shows. They are both wrong.

ALso, look at Connally's shirt, do you see it covered in blood? Do you see Connally knocked forward by the force of the bullet that he talks about in the video clip I attached?

The answer is no, and it's because the lapel was simply MOVED by John Connally raising his arms as he did. That's the reaction to JFK's back shot, a bullet fragment from that hit him in the left leg. That is believable because there were THREE bullet fragments found under Nellie Connally's seat just to the left of John Connally's left leg.

Who cares what you think of Dr. Wecht. I found him helpful and inquisitive. I did find it interesting that HE NEVER considered a shot AFTER JFK's head shot even though witnesses said they heard TWO SHOTS at the end of the shooting, AND the Dallas Police Recording sad the SAME THING!

Dr. Wecht and I would disagree on many things, but I found Dr. Wecht and his son Ben were very helpful in my research. He also respected my request for confidentiality, you haven't heard of this, have you?

[BILL_C]

Me too, but the conspiracy kooks keep pushing it anyway. I have had coorespondence with Dale Meyers, the computer animator mentioned in the two shows I started out with. His animation is WRONG, but he would NOT meet with me to discuss it. I offered to go to Detroit at my expense to discuss it.

I'm sure he has had more than enough TrueBeliever(tm) conspiracy folks show up to scream at him already, he doesn't need more.

I appreciate the reply, but I don't expect you to believe me in just a couple of page presentation. I picked JUST the two shots that wounded John Connally as a topic, as the whole event is probably one of the most written about events in history, with more THEORIES, wild guesses and simple stupidity than probably any other event in history.

But IF you'll look at my pictures, think about this scenario vs. the Warren Commission explanation, it'll start to be at least PLAUSIBLE to you. You see, for over 40 years, people have been arguing whether something like a bullet going UP through JFK and then DOWN through Governor Connally is possble. THEY have NEVER shown you this scenario as an ALTERNATIVE. SO, if you rule it out and don't consider it, you'll understand WHY Lincoln said:

"You Can fool all of the people some of the time..... but NOT all the people all the time.

You don't know me but I deal in facts, reason and especially I understand simple physics. Anybody who buys the Warren Commission fantasy doesn't. I don't usually BOTHER in presentation saying much about it because EVENTUALLY it will be laughable that so many people bought that line. I told Dale Meyers that his animation is WRONG and he refused to discuss it. How's going to believe me? I understand that, but I also understand YOU've NEVER BEEN shown what actually happened. IT's a lot simpler than trying to explain how a bullet goes down (from the TSBD), then UP throught JFK (and Horizontal is the best you can get close to) then down through Gov. Connally. That trajectory is WHY Dr. Wecht was the lone dissenter in the HSCA hearings in 1978. I explained WHAT did happen to him. It's the FIRST TIME he had ever heard the explanation too. Regards

[Tares]

In post 178, you said: Explain how Connally held his hat even after the back shot to Kennedy (Connally's wrist was supposedly broken then yet he held his hat for another 5 seconds).

In post 197 I asked two questions:

1)Are you suggesting that Gov. Connally was shot in the wrist 5 seconds after Pres. Kennnedy was shot in the back?

2)How do you know how long Gov. Connally held his hat after the back shot to Kennedy?

You answered question 1 in post 225: That's EXACTLY what happened.

You didn't answer the second question: How do you know how long Gov. Connally held his hat after the back shot to Kennedy?

Would you be so kind as to answer my second question:

How do you know how long Gov. Connally held his hat after the back shot to Kennedy?

[Shooter 2.5]

When the retards at SouthPark think folks like this are retards, you would think they would take the hint.

The Southpark episode was a classic,[for a bunch of retards]. I do believe the government allowed the retards to believe what they wanted. The Cold War against the Russians certainly didn't need a Marxist killing an American president.

Any bolt action rifle should be capable of hitting a nine by eighteen inch target inside of a hundred yards. Even a Mini-14 isn't that bad.

[Al Gator]

Hey, dimwit, I got more time at the range than you have breathing.

Go be rude and insulting somewhere else bozo.

[BILL_C]

You didn't answer the second question: How do you know how long Gov. Connally held his hat after the back shot to Kennedy? Would you be so kind as to answer my second question: How do you know how long Gov. Connally held his hat after the back shot to Kennedy?

Sorry for being dense, let's look. I don't have access to some video clips so I can just describe them. IF you look at my post and the first couple of links, you can see the Zapruder film. IF you have each frame separate like I do on my other computers you can see that Connally's arm is directly in front of his chest when he is hit in the back.

IF you look at Dale Meyer's "BEYOND CONSPIRACY" animation, he clearly shows Connally has the hat in his hand at Z=324. Now I'm on record (for whatever that's worth) as saying that Meyer's animation is wrong and I'll show you how he's wrong when I get the information available later this evening. BUT for now, Meyer CLEARLY shows the hat in Connally's hand when he falls over into Nellies lap, a motion which is a product of him ducking forward (Z=319), getting hit in the back (Z=325) then him collapsing and Nellie then pulling him over AFTER he is shot in the back.

Another person on this thread said that's NOT a correct argument about Connally dropping his hat when he was shot in the wrist, that the bullet hitting him in the wrist caused him to freeze the grip on his hat. That's hard for me to believe but it's necessary for someone to believe IF you accept the single bullet theory.

TO answer clearly how Connally was shot:

The first wound was caused by a bullet fragment to John Connally's leg and you can see John Connally's reaction to that MINOR wound to his left leg by him raising his arms as he is startled by this, his lapel pops out at Z=223 as he raises his arms, he looks to his LEFT (he's only wounded in his left leg by a bullet fragment from the shot to JFK), then Connally makes his turn to look over his left shoulder.

Now at Z313 we have the shot to JFK's head. The reaction by the three men ahead is ducking down forward starting at about Z=319. At Z=325, we have the bullet fired at JFK's head from the TSBD missing JFK, (he has been knocked back and to the left out of the way of the shot).

The bullet misses JFK's head and hits Connally in the right upper back, knocking him forward VIOLENTLY (watch it in real time on one of the MANY Zapruder flicks on the internet). It passes through his body, destroys about 10 cm of one rib, then hits his right wrist. Whether he is still holding his hat is not all that important, we can clearly see he did hold his hat after his leg wound for some period of time.

[Schwaeky]

Don't you realize when there is evidence to the contrary they will bury it to support the official position, esp. in regards to the Kennedy Assasination. I'm not sure who it was that posted it, but they hit the nail on the head about Right wing power players being purged from the Democrat party by leftists, and that too is plausible that could have been why Kennedy was killed.

Regardless of WHO was behind the assasination, it was a military operation from start to finish, requiring that the target be vanquished on site,that not be allowed to escape alive...

Also, don't forget the foliage was still in full bloom, the kind of trees there don't shed until the last week of February.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Why should I address an issue I never raised when you ignore the ones I did raise. Though I have read that the ammo was not particularly good that is a secondary problem to the main one -the pitiful excuse for a sniper rifle.

All I said about ammo is that there is ZERO evidence of Oswald buying any or practicing anytime withing months with the rifle. In order to shot a rifle with a misattached and dysfunctional sight one must practice a lot. Oswald didn't.

Where/when did he buy any ammo? Why were there NO other bullets found among his possessions.

Let me see if I understand this. Oswald decides (for unknown reasons) to shoot the president (a man he admired), has had no practice with the difficult to operate rifle which was poor on its best day, has four bullets left and decides to go for it. Transports rifle parts dissassembled in a makeshift paper "bag" then reassembles the gun without being able to sight it in and does the deed.

Testimony from top snipers contradicts the very weak statement by the WC that Oswald could do the shooting which has NOT been replicated by any others.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Pretty weak. He would have said "I'm innocent." Not "I'm just a patsy." The latter statement did not indicate innocence but rather involvement with others.

[justshutupandtakeit]

However, buying a gun in Texas would not have created a nice, paper trail which could be used to implicate Oswald. The WC cannot even explain how Oswald could have even picked up the gun from the Post Office when he was recorded to be at work. Nor is there any evidence that documents HE picked it up. Nothing he signed, no clerks that remember the transaction. But if we note such anomalies we are crazy.

[justshutupandtakeit]

However, buying a gun in Texas would not have created a nice, paper trail which could be used to implicate Oswald. The WC cannot even explain how Oswald could have even picked up the gun from the Post Office when he was recorded to be at work. Nor is there any evidence that documents HE picked it up. Nothing he signed, no clerks that remember the transaction. But if we note such anomalies we are crazy.

[justshutupandtakeit]

South Park was addressing one particular conspiracy theory not every conspiracy theory. So that dog won't hunt.

You know what was required to allow the government to shoot the MC and that it was not capable of doing what was claimed of it in the condition which it was found. Yet you pretend that none of that mattered.

[Churchillspirit]

What further reading did you do to cause you to question Lifton's findings?

[Tares]

You said (post 178): Explain how Connally held his hat even after the back shot to Kennedy (Connally's wrist was supposedly broken then yet he held his hat for another 5 seconds).

This implies you think that Connally could not hold his hat after he was shot in the wrist. You also state that he held the hat for 5 seconds after Kennedy was shot in the back, and then at that time (5 seconds after Kennedy was shot in the back), Gov. Connally was hit by a bullet that hit him in the back, passed through his torso, and hit him in the wrist. Since you previously stated that Connally holding his hat after Kennedy was shot in the back is proof that Connally was not yet hit in the wrist, you must believe that Connally dropped his hat when he was hit in the wrist 5 seconds after Kennedy was hit in the back. Why then do you say It passes through his body, destroys about 10 cm of one rib, then hits his right wrist. Whether he is still holding his hat is not all that important, we can clearly see he did hold his hat after his leg wound for some period of time.

Do you believe Gov. Connally could not hold his hat after being shot in the wrist?

If the answer is yes, Gov. Connally could not hold his hat after being shot in the wrist, then, hypothetically, if Gov. Connally was holding his hat 25 seconds after Kennnedy was shot in the back, would you consider that proof that Gov. Connally was not shot in the wrist until at least 25 seconds after Pres. Kennedy was shot in the back?

[The KG9 Kid]

"... I have read that the ammo was not particularly good that is a secondary problem to the main one -the pitiful excuse for a sniper rifle."

You have been misinformed. Tests by the FBI and independent laboratories concluded that the ammunition was thoroughly reliable. It's also significantly powerful. FBI Firearms Lab director Robert Frazier testified to the Warren that Oswald's rifle was a good rifle for the assassination and that the ammunition performance in their lab tests was "Very accurate, very dependable".(Testimony of Robert Frazier, Warren Commission vol. III pp 400, 437, 449)

Oswald received ammuntion with the purchase of his rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods. Also, several other Dallas area merchants selling firearms related sporting goods also had surplus 6.5x57 Carcano in stock. All of them responded to FBI investigators that none of them sold to Oswald the assassination rifle. Only after investigators searched Oswald's home did they find the receipt to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and empty boxes of ammunition. Marina Oswald testified to the Warren Commission that she noticed the rifle and accompanying ammunition on the night that Oswald received it via mail order.

That's how the FBI determined that Oswald's rounds came from the Western Cartridge Company. Futher investigation with the executives of the company -- specifically Mr. R.W. Botts, District Manager, Winchester-Western Division, Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation, Braniff Building, Western Cartridge Company, a division of Olin Industries, East Alton, Illinois -- determined that the specific ammunition Oswald used came from sub-lots 6000, 6001, 6002, 6003. (Warren Commission Exhibit 2694)

As for the rest of your post, it's in error. I suggest you read up on the psychological profile of Oswald assembled through interviews with his family and acquaintances entered as testimony into the Warren Commission's report. The notion 'Admirer of President Kennedy' is another conspiracist-borne distraction that's been planted in the minds of the casually interested to serve their purpose of concealing the fact that Oswald was a committed left wing radical.

Really. Go read. Provide notes, not notions.