Update from Ukraine | The Sign of the new Ukrainian Counterattack | We go all in

Youtube.com ^ | 4-19-2023 | Denys Davydov

[BroJoeK]

woodpusher: "Elensky closed all the orthodox churches.
Do you claim that all orthodox Christians in Ukraine are disloyal spies who support invading armies?
Or do you suggest that they worship at the local synagogue?"

No, not "all the orthodox churches" are closed.
Indeed, I can't find a report that says Zelenskyy closed even one church, Russian orthodox or otherwise.
Instead, the news reports say Zelenskyy submitted a bill to Ukraine's parliament requesting they close Moscow controlled Orthodox churches, a small minority of all Ukrainian Orthodox churches.

And it seems Ukrainians are not the only ones closing down opposition churches:

"Christians in occupied regions of Ukraine are being driven underground by the hostility of pro-Russian forces who have been closing churches and arresting pastors, says Release International.
In the Russian-controlled city of Melitopol, occupying forces have shut the three largest evangelical Protestant churches."

So, I can't google up a report which says Zelenskyy closed even one Russian orthodox church, but I can find where Russians are closing down Ukrainian churches they don't like.

woodpusher: "You're right!
The little beggar Elensky came to possess the money lawfully.
Then he wrongfully converted it to his own use.
He didn't steal, he embezzled.
Totally different crime."

But there's no crime at all -- zero, nada, zip, zilch crime -- unless there's evidence to prove it.
I've seen no hint of such evidence.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

BAKHMUT VIDEO

1. THE INSANE FOOTAGE OF UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS IN THE BATTLE FOR THE LAST ROAD TO BAKHMUT || 2023
Warthog Defense
499K subscribers
Apr 20, 2023 1:30 p.m. DST
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYBi4DNyN8A

2. Da Vinci Wolves in heavy fight for the last road into Bakhmut | Military Mind | TVP World
TVP World TVP is a Polish public broadcast service.
319K subscribers
Apr 20, 2023 4:30 p.m. DST
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK1wVeQVkQI

“The Da Vinci Wolves are defending the last remaining road out of Bakhmut in the hands of defenders.”

COMMENT “Excellent shooting, leadership, and communication skills by the commander. Took charge of the situation and won. Glad they had eyes in the sky to help them. Mopped up the stragglers.”

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

TRUTH

[woodpusher]

The Russian Orthodox Church in Khmelnytskyi refused to allow prayers for her son. That town is West of Kiev in the heart of Ukraine.

Assuming the story to be true, your purported point is that if a specific church declines to perform some religious service then it is a proper government function to close all churches of that denomination in the country.

Perhaps if a priest, a rabbi, a minister or an imam in some town refused to perform a marriage ceremony for a gay couple, that would be justification for the government to close all Roman Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, or Muslim religious institutions related to the one that refused to perform a gay marriage.

[woodpusher]

The Russian Orthodox Churches were closed. Ukrainian Orthodox Churches are still open.

That's rather like closing all the Roman Catholic churches and saying all the other Christian churches are still open.

https://www.jpost.com/christianworld/article-734138

Authorities ordered the church last Friday to leave its base in the 980-year-old Pechersk Lavra monastery complex, prompting Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill to ask Pope Francis and other religious leaders to help stop the crackdown. …

The Security Service of Ukraine has since October carried out searches at UOC churches, imposed sanctions on its bishops and financial backers, and opened criminal cases against dozens of clergymen.

Church officials say it and its millions of worshippers are victims of a witch-hunt.

Orthodoxy is the primary faith in Ukraine and the Moscow-linked church has been in competition for worshippers with an independent Orthodox Church, founded after the Soviet collapse in 1991 but only recognized by church hierarchy in 2018.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

WRONG.

This is a much larger subject that you do not have enough info on.

[woodpusher]

This is a political issue, not a religious one.

Ah yes, closing all the churches of the Russian orthodox church is not about religion.

https://cne.news/article/2206-zelensky-takes-further-steps-against-ukrainian-orthodox-church

Zelensky takes further steps against Ukrainian Orthodox Church

14-12-2022
Eastern Europe
CNE.news

The Ukrainian President Zelensky has announced sanctions against another seven leaders within the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC). According to him, they are a threat to the security of the country. These sanctions come while the country is waiting for a bill to ban the UOC.

Two weeks ago, President Zelensky put another group of UOC clergy under sanctions. For five years, these priests and bishops are not allowed to take money out of the country, to own land, and their capital is frozen. This is reported by media as the Orthodox Journalists and Ria Novosti.

Another striking detail is that the government has dismissed Elena Bogdan, the leader of the State Service for Ethnopolitics and Freedom of Conscience, according to media reports. Mrs Bogdan is known for her opposition to a ban on the UOC. According to her, there might be pro-Kremlin clergy in this church, but it is difficult to ban the church as a whole.

The measures came after searches in several monasteries and UOC schools. The Ukrainian security services, SBU, claim to have found pro-Kremlin material there. However, there are rumours that this material has been planted there.

On paper

The UOC is under suspicion because of its link with the ROC, the Russian Orthodox Church. On paper, the church recognises the Moscow Patriarch Kirill as the ‘church father’. This link facilitates Russian influence, Zelensky says. The church has tried to remove the name Moscow from its statutes, although the Moscow Patriarchate has not recognised this. That means that, on paper, the connection still exists.

On the other hand, it is questionable whether this link between UOC and Moscow is something more than just canonically on paper. From the first day of the war, the UOC condemned the Russian invasion as a war. There has never been any vocal opposition against this position taken by Metropolitan Onuphry.

Soon after the invasion, however, the matter came into debate. Some city councils started to ban the Moscow-connected church. And also, the new Orthodox church, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), asked for a national ban on the UOC. In many places, OCU believers claimed church buildings from UOC parishes. From the nature of the Orthodox faith, one church should have a monopoly on this title. Currently, the UOC still has 62 per cent of all Orthodox believers in the country in 12,000 parishes. However, these figures from the Ukrainian Parliament may not be up to date. It is clear, however, that the Orthodox faith is still the dominant factor in Ukraine.

Secular state

President Zelensky also announced a bill that will lead to a ban on the UOC. Two commissions within the Verkhovna Rada, the Parliament, have already given an early opinion. According to the Orthodox Journalists, the Humanitarian Committee has agreed with a ban.

The Legal Committee, however, has said this bill will lead to an acute religious confrontation in society. It is also against the Constitution, which guarantees religious freedom in the country. Also, international bodies such as the Council of Europe could condemn such a step.

President Zelensky has announced sanctions against the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. This church is too much connected with Russia, he thinks.

The bill proposes to allow only those churches that will become subordinate to the new OCU to be called “Orthodox”. In the Ukrainian setup (which is similar to Russia), the law says which church can claim the title Orthodox or not. But the Legal Committee says that, according to the Constitution, Ukraine is a “secular state”, which forbids advantages for a particular religious body in the law. The committee also doubts whether it is wise to speak about “foreign religious organisations” in the bill. During the Soviet times, this concept discouraged membership of Protestant faiths.

[...]

In the meantime, a second Ukrainian soldier has called on the authorities to solve the religious issue in another way. Two weeks ago, another serviceman warned of a split because of religious politics. On Monday, soldier Bohdan Grafov recorded an appeal in support of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which was reported by the Orthodox Journalists.

“In times of war, I consider such things inappropriate and only divisive for society”, Bohdan said. He reminded that “Russophilia” can be fought within the law. “Demonising the entire church is the way to internal strife. It is an encroachment on the sacred for many. I hope that the authorities will be wise enough to solve all acute issues constructively, without hurting the feelings of believers”, according to the serviceman.

Now, if the Amish could only have the Biden outlaw all churches aligned with Rome, England or Israel, and take their buildings, and force them to align with the Amish faith, that would be a way for the government to get us back to good old home living with the values of the Founders. The government has a moral imperative to save us all from perdition and lead us to the one, true faith.

Nothing religious about that, just pure politics in the best interest of the people.

[Petrosius]

That's rather like closing all the Roman Catholic churches and saying all the other Christian churches are still open.

No. Your original statement was: "Elensky closed all the orthodox churches." So the proper analogy would be: "That's rather like closing all the Roman Catholic churches and saying all the Christian churches were closed." You were equating Russian Orthodox with all Orthodox. The closure of the Russian Orthodox churches is regrettable but it is not the closure of all Orthodox churches.

[woodpusher]

But there's no crime at all -- zero, nada, zip, zilch crime -- unless there's evidence to prove it.
I've seen no hint of such evidence.

In the most notoriously corrupt country in Europe. Well, son of bitch, the prosecutor got fired. Ten per cent for the big guy. Like your hero Obama, you do not see even a hint of corruption. Not even a smidgen. Are you sure you are not John Kirby?

Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle

Organized Crime & Corruption - Reporting Project (OCCRP)

[woodpusher]

This is a much larger subject that you do not have enough info on.

I have enough info to know you can't market harassing and closing down the Ukranian Orthodox Church as democracy and freedom of religion.

[woodpusher]

The closure of the Russian Orthodox churches is regrettable but it is not the closure of all Orthodox churches.

In Ukraine it is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, commonly referred to as the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP). It is indeed regrettable that religious hatred expressed through harrassment and closing churches of one religion of Russian influence is official government practice. It is a tad difficult to twist this into democracy or freedom of religion, or to defend in any way.

[gleeaikin]

Actually I think the boy was 7 or 8.

[BroJoeK]

woodpusher: "Now, if the Amish could only have the Biden outlaw all churches aligned with Rome, England or Israel, and take their buildings, and force them to align with the Amish faith, that would be a way for the government to get us back to good old home living with the values of the Founders."

The Amish have no interest in churches aligned with Rome, England or Israel.
Nor are they "aligned" with anyone else's faith.
They "do their own thing" with the minimum possible influence from others.

[gleeaikin]

Around 1890, my grandmother and her husband came to the US from what was then East Prussia (Germany), and in or near what is now called Kaliningrad and Russian occupied. In WW2 when the Russians entered Berlin, 2 of her sisters lived there. They were elderly maiden ladies, one a gynecologist (she knew how the Russians were treating women) and the other a dentist. They committed suicide.

For this and other family reasons, plus the generally horrible why the Russians have been acting for the past century at home and abroad, I am committed to supporting Ukraine in this war. Nothing will convince me to change my mind on this decision.

[BroJoeK]

woodpusher: "Well, son of bitch, the prosecutor got fired."

In 2016, having nothing whatever to do with Zelenskyy and your claims in post #121 that, "Then he wrongfully converted it [US aid] to his own use. He didn't steal, he embezzled."

woodpusher: "Like your hero Obama, you do not see even a hint of corruption.
Not even a smidgen.
Are you sure you are not John Kirby?"

Sorry, FRiend, but as per usual, you are confused and disoriented here.
Your original claim was that Zelenskyy embezzled US aid money, presumably in 2022.
Your "proof" of that is Biden getting a Ukraine prosecutor fired in 2016.

Now you wish to claim that off-shore holdings "prove" Zelensky is corrupt.
Your report on Zelenskyy's off-shore holdings do not say there was anything corrupt about how Zelenskyy earned his money, or that there is anything corrupt in keeping money in foreign banks.

Yet, somehow you wish us to believe that Zelenskyy is necessarily corrupt just because... because... because woodpusher says so.

No thanks.

[BroJoeK]

woodpusher: "I have enough info to know you can't market harassing and closing down the Ukranian Orthodox Church as democracy and freedom of religion."

I still can't find a legitimate report saying even one Ukrainian church was closed by Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

1. I can find reports of Russians closing Ukraine churches, one such I posted in #121 above, and here again.

2. I can also find reports of 113 Ukrainian churches destroyed by Russian shelling.

3. And, I can find reports saying Zelenskyy has asked Ukraine's parliament to close Ukrainian churches linked to Moscow.
   "KYIV, Dec 2 (Reuters) - The Ukrainian government will draw up a law banning churches affiliated with Russia under moves described by President Volodymyr Zelenskiy as necessary to prevent Moscow being able to "weaken Ukraine from within."

   In a move condemned in Moscow, Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council told the government to draft the law following a series of raids on parishes that Kyiv says could be taking orders from Moscow as Russia wages war on Ukraine."

4. And, I can even find were 33 Russian orthodox priests were arrested:
   "Kyiv has long worried that Russia is using the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate to provide cover for a network of clandestine agents trying to undermine Ukraine from within.
   The Ukrainian authorities have said that as of October, 33 priests had been arrested for assisting Russia since the invasion began in February, mostly by funneling information to Moscow’s forces."

But still no reports on how many, if any, Russian orthodox churches are now closed by order of the Ukraine government.

[Petrosius]

Will you also condemn the strictures that the Russians place on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) and on the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church?

[BroJoeK]

A strike: "“The Soviets ‘officially’ transferred Crimea to Ukraine. OK, the 1954 borders are the real borders of Crimea. ?"

Well, Russia recognized Crimea as part of Ukraine in 1954, again in 1991, 1994, 1997 and 2003.
If any of those documents referred to adjustments in Ukraine's borders, I've seen nothing about it.

Have you?

[A strike]

Don’t be a dumscheif, Crimea is Russia.
Since when has Ukraine exercised control of Crimea ?

[BroJoeK]

A strike: "Don’t be a dumscheif, Crimea is Russia.
Since when has Ukraine exercised control of Crimea ?"

Russia recognized Crimea as part of Ukraine on at least five occasions over 49 years:

1. 1954 Soviet transfer of Crimea to Ukraine
2. 1991 Belovezha Accords
3. 1994 Budapest Memorandum
4. 1997 Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty
5. 2003 Russia Ukraine border treaty

Nothing Vlad the Invader has done in Crimea is recognized internationally as lawful.
Shades of blue-green opposed Vlad's annexing Crimea.
Shades of orange-purple support Vlad annexing Crimea.