Posted on 03/20/2022 6:10:45 AM PDT by Travis McGee
Isn't it too late for that right now, though? As of right now, if Russia stops fighting, there will be no fighting; if Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no Ukraine, as we know it.
“Isn’t it too late for that right now, though?”
Nope. All it takes is for the US to back off, let Ukraine back off, and Russia backs off.
It is never too late to sue/negotiate for peace.
How does the Holodomor factor into the history of the area?
You Sir, have a keen mind!
Thank you for this straightforward presentation.
Pretty much understood the reasons for the invasion to begin with though these maps give a much better historical perspective. Not many are willing to learn from history thereby dooming themselves to epic failure.
Thanks for the additional education.
That’s worth WW3 with nukes, to you?
The whole world is in knots trying to avoid WW3. And is, say, keeping Poland entirely intact worth it? Russia has it's own perspective on igniting WW3 to take into consideration, too.
Such times we live in, oh Lord.
Bump
Ukraine actually predates Russia, dating back to the 8th Century as Kievan Rus. Even Pooty-Poot admits that. Moscow was nothing but an unpopulated spot along a river for another three hundred years.
Russia began as a client state of the Mongols with the creation of the Grand Principality of Moscow in 1263. The Rurik Dynasty that ruled in Ukraine had controlled lands of today's Russia until then.
After the Mongol period what is now modern day Ukraine was controlled by a succession of foreign powers. In 1571 the Crimean Khanate, a remnant of the Golden Horde, actually sacked Moscow. So much for the national unity of the Motherland, I guess.
The analogy to the purchase of Alaska is a particularly weak one. Russian control of Ukrainian lands did not occur as a result of a simple peacetime transaction. It was through a series of wars between Russia and the Ottoman Empire, Poland, Sweden, and various Tatar and Cossack states. In 1783, Russia violated the 1774 Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca that guaranteed non-interference of both Russia and the Ottoman Empire in the affairs Crimea, and added Crimea to its empire. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Catherine the Great encouraged German immigration to dilute the dominance of Turkish people in Ukraine, and later the Czars continued to suppress the Ukrainian language and culture as part of their Russification policy.
For four years after the collapse of the Russian Empire various factions fought over control of Ukraine with the Soviets eventually taking most of Eastern Ukraine while the western part was absorbed by Poland. Eastern Ukraine became one of the four founding republics of the Soviet Union, with the right on paper to withdraw at any time, a decision that Moscow would never actually allow of course. But technically, Ukraine was NEVER officially part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic.
Western Ukraine was taken back by force in WWII with the defeat of the Germans in 1945. We know the rest. The USSR collapsed, Ukraine became independent, and gave up its nukes for guarantees of territorial integrity, which Putin of course ignored just as Catherine the Great did hundreds of years before.
If you're going to use history as a justification, it can be used to support any point of view. The whole history of Europe is one of shifting maps, constantly changing territorial demands, and claims and counter claims of imminent invasions by imaginary boogieman. Today its NATO, tomorrow who will it be? Lithuania, Estonia, Poland?
Only one thing is undeniable. Today Russia is the only one using war to take land for itself and bolster the glory of its autocratic ruler, as the country has done for hundreds of years.
“The sovereign nation of Ukraine”.
A statement for and by stupid people.
That doesn’t mean it will be effective...I suspect the next thing shaping up will be a coup in Russia, fomented by western oligarchs. Or maybe it will be a putsch and Putin will blame the whole thing on “reactionary elements” working with Western criminals (e.g. look at the biowarfare lab accusation) deliberately trying to screw things up to cover their nefarious deeds. That would provide cover for hasty withdrawals and reconciliation. Heck, he might even fake a putsch as cover and “save” Russia in the bargain...
Far more likely is interminable morass, e.g. ex-Yugoslavia.
It is never too late to sue/negotiate for peace.
If only it were that simple. A lot of damage has been done, a lot of territory is in purgatory. Untangling the situation would be/will be a nightmare in itself.
Stupid and/or corrupt minds believe Ukraine is an actual country.
The entire world, the entire EU, the entire US knows Ukraine is a country.
You 3% LiberalTarians are the exceptions.
Stupid and/or corrupt minds believe Ukraine is an actual country.
“Far more likely is interminable morass, e.g. ex-Yugoslavia.”
You could be right, but the idea that we can interfere then claim innocent in light of evidence to the contrary is telling of how far gone and corrupt our own government has become. This could affect us right here.
“Untangling the situation would be/will be a nightmare in itself.”
Well, the alternative is world war as one corrupt country tries to cover its tracks after another, the USA included. Unless Ukraine and Russia get together, the elites will continue to exploit this situation to cover their tracks.
You say that is my position. It is not and it’s feckless of you to say so
Going back in history to establish to days borders is pointless
It is on par with returning to your ancestors home and turning the US over to the original tribes
I do that too.
“outmanned and outgunned they are putting up one hell of a fight”
...according to the same Mockingbird Media who told us vaxxes are “safe and effective” and the evil Russkies rigged the election of 2016 but the election of 2020 proved that “democracy works” and the greatest threat facing the US is not open borders but rather “white nationalism”.
If you want to believe congenital liars go for it....
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