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To: woodpusher

The South has undertaken a violent secession and was preparing for war. As CIC Lincoln sent supplies and troops to reinforce Ft. Sumter.

The South had ‘’opened the ball’’ meaning it viewed any move by Lincoln to be a provocation, an excuse to open fire.

Nothing changes the fact the Confederate batteries fired the first shots.


304 posted on 06/13/2021 7:26:48 PM PDT by jmacusa (America. Founded by geniuses . Now governed by idiots.)
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To: jmacusa; jeffersondem
[jmacusa #123 to jeffersondem] Bullshit. Lincoln had sent resupply ships.

[jmacusa #304 to woodpusher] The South has undertaken a violent secession and was preparing for war. ... Nothing changes the fact the Confederate batteries fired the first shots.

Nothing changes the fact that your claim that Lincoln had sent resupply ships was exposed as rank fiction.

Several southern states had undertaken a secession by passing ordinances of secession in 1864 while Buchanan was President. Extraordinary violence did not occur and neither did a war occur as a direct result. The border states of Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina seceded after the events of April 12, 1865 in Charleston, SC and in the Pensacola, FL area.

There was no violent secession in 1860. There was no war in 1860.

Lincoln created a state of war by issuing his second declaration of a blockade, April 19, 1865, as has been repeatedly affirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

A state of war may only be created by an official public proclamation by a government. "[I]n a civil war, only the government can know when the insurrection has assumed the character of war." Matthews v. McStea, 91 U.S. 7, 9 (1875).

Lincoln's first proclamation of a blockade was not such a proclamation which would create a state of war. The Supreme Court emphatically held that there was no state of war on April 15, 1865, and such war commenced on April 19, 1865.

No declaration of war was ever made. The President recognized its existence by proclaiming a blockade on the 19th of April; and it then became his duty as well as his right to direct how it should be carried on. In the exercise of this right, he was at liberty to allow or license intercourse; and his proclama­tions, if they did not license it expressly, did, in our opinion, license it by very cogent implications. It is impossible to read them without a conviction that no interdiction of commercial intercourse, except through the ports of the designated States, was intended. The first was that of April 15, 1861. The forts and property of the United States had, prior to that day, been forcibly seized by armed forces. Hostilities had commenced; and, in the light of subsequent events, it must be considered that a state of war then existed. Yet the proclamation, while calling for the militia of the several States, and stating what would probably be the first service assigned to them, expressly declared, that, “in every event, the utmost care would be ob­served, consistently with the repossession of the forts, places, and property which had been seized from the Union, to avoid any devastation, destruction of or interference with property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens in any part of the country.” Manifestly, this declaration was not a mere military order. It did not contemplate the treatment of the inhab­itants of the States in which the unlawful combinations men­tioned in the proclamation existed as public enemies. It announced a different mode of treatment, — the treatment due to friends. It is to be observed that the proclamation of April 15, 1861, was not a distinct recognition of an existing state of war. The President had power to recognize it, The Prize Cases, supra ; but he did not prior to his second proclamation, that of April 19, in which he announced the blockade.

Obviously, the Supreme Court explicitly and emphatically found that the proclamation of April 15, 1861 was not a distinct recognition of a state of war, rather it announced a different mode of treatment, the treatment due to friends. The court found that the President could have recognized such a state of war but chose not to, and did not do so, until April 19, 1861.

The precise dates, and the precise events, of the start and end of the civil war was addressed by the United States Supreme Court in the case of The Protector, 79 U.S. 700 (1870).

Assuming arguendo that it is denied that South Carolina had left the union, i.e. that secession was unlawful and actions to effect it were null and void, then the sending of a transport ship in the service of the government with armed troops, ammunition, and supplies was an unconstitutional invasion of the state contrary to Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution.

The opinion of the Attorney General, Jeremiah Black was sought and rendered on November 20, 1860.

"The laws referred to in the Act of 1795 are manifestly those which are administered by the judges, and executed by the ministerial officers of the courts for the punishment of crime against the United States, for the protection of rights claimed under the Federal Constitution and laws, and for the enforcement of such obligations as come within the cognizance of the Federal Judiciary. To compel obedience to these laws, the courts have authority to punish all who obstruct their regular administration, and the marshals and their deputies have the same powers as sheriffs and their deputies in the several States in executing the laws of the States. These are the ordinary means provided for the execution of the laws; and the whole spirit of our system is opposed to the employment of any other, except in cases of extreme necessity arising out of great and unusual combinations against them. Their agency must continue to be used until their incapacity to cope with the power opposed to them shall be plainly demonstrated. It is only upon clear evidence to that effect that a military force can be called into the field. Even then its operations must be purely defensive. It can suppress only such combinations as are found directly opposing the laws and obstructing the execution thereof. It can do no more than what might and ought to be done by a civil posse, if a civil posse could be raised large enough to meet the same opposition. On such occasions, especially, the military power must be kept in strict subordination to the civil authority, since it is only in aid of the latter that the former can act at all.

"But what if the feeling in any State against the United States should become so universal that the Federal officers themselves (including judges, district attorneys, and marshals) would be reached by the same influences, and resign their places? Of course, the first step would be to appoint others in their stead, if others could be got to serve. But in such an event, it is more than probable that great difficulty would be found in filling the offices. We can easily conceive how it might become altogether impossible. We are therefore obliged to consider what can be done in case we have no courts to issue judicial process, and no ministerial officers to execute it. In that event troops would certainly be out of place, and their use wholly illegal. If they are sent to aid the courts and marshals, there must be courts and marshals to be aided. Without the exercise of those functions which belong exclusively to the civil service, the laws cannot be executed in any event, no matter what may be the physical strength which the Government has at its command. Under such circumstances to send a military force into any State, with orders to act against the people, would be simply making war upon them.

"The existing laws put and keep the Federal Government strictly on the defensive. You can use force only to repel an assault on the public property and aid the Courts in the performance of their duty. If the means given you to collect the revenue and execute the other laws be insufficient for that purpose, Congress may extend and make them more effectual to those ends.

"If one of the States should declare her independence, your action cannot depend on the rightfulness of the cause upon which such declaration is based. Whether the retirement of the State from the Union be the exercise of a right reserved in the Constitution, or a revolutionary movement, it is certain that you have not in either case the authority to recognize her independence or to absolve her from her Federal obligations. Congress, or the other States in Convention assembled, must take such measures as may be necessary and proper. In such an event, I see no course for you but to go straight onward in the path you have hitherto trodden — that is, execute the laws to the extent of the defensive means placed in your hands, and act generally upon the assumption that the present constitutional relations between the States and the Federal Gevernment continue to exist, until a new code of things shall be established either by law or force.

"Whether Congress has the constitutional right to make war against one or more States, and require the Executive of the Federal Government to carry it on by means of force to be drawn from the other States, is a question for Congress itself to consider. It must be admitted that no such power is expressly given; nor are there any words in the Constitution which imply it. Among the powers enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 is that 'to declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and to make rules concerning captures on land and water.' This certainly means nothing more than the power to commence and carry on hostilities against the foreign enemies of the nation. Another clause in the same section gives Congress the power 'to provide for calling forth the militia,' and to use them within the limits of the State. But this power is so restricted by the words which immediately follow that it can be exercised only for one of the following purposes:

To execute the laws of the Union; that is, to aid the Federal officers in the performance of their regular duties.

To suppress insurrections against the State; but this is confined by Article 4, Section 4, to cases in which the State herself shall apply for assistance against her own people.

To repel the invasion of a State by enemies who come from abroad to assail her in her own territory.

All these provisions are made to protect the States, not to authorize an attack by one part of the country upon another; to preserve the peace, and not to plunge them into civil war. Our forefathers do not seem to have thought that war was calculated 'to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.' There was undoubtedly a strong and universal conviction among the men who framed and ratified the Constitution, that military force would not only be useless, but pernicious, as a means of holding the States together.

"If it be true that war cannot be declared, nor a system of general hostilities carried on by the Central Government against a State, then it seems to follow that an attempt to do so would be ipso facto an expulsion of such State from the Union. Being treated as an alien and an enemy, she would be compelled to act accordingly. And if Congress shall break up the present Union by unconstitutionally putting strife and enmity and armed hostility between different sections of the country, instead of the domestic tranquillity which the Constitution was meant to insure, will not all the States be absolved from their Federal obligations? Is any portion of the people bound to contribute their money or their blood to carry on a contest like that?

"The right of the General Government to preserve itself in its whole constitutional vigor by repelling a direct and positive aggression upon its property or its officers cannot be denied. But this is a totally different thing from an offensive war to punish the people for the political misdeeds of their State Government, or to enforce an acknowledgment that the Government of the United States is supreme. The States are colleagues of one another, and if some of them shall conquer the rest, and hold them as subjugated provinces, it would totally destroy the whole theory upon which they are now connected.

"If this view of the subject be correct, as I think it is, then the Union must utterly perish at the moment when Congress shall arm one part of the people against another for any purpose beyond that of merely protecting the General Government in the exercise of its proper constitutional functions.

"I am, very respectfully, yours, etc.,

"J. S. BLACK."

One certainty is that you cannot credibly claim that a Confederate force marched or sailed north to initiate the conflict.

309 posted on 06/14/2021 1:46:04 AM PDT by woodpusher
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To: jmacusa
You can't change the fact that Lincoln launched a fleet of warships at them with orders to use force against them.

That was the first attack. The Confederate bombardment of Sumter was the response to that attack.

330 posted on 06/14/2021 5:21:26 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: jmacusa; HandyDandy; Nifster; DoodleDawg; BroJoeK; x; DiogenesLamp; rebuildus; rockrr; ...
“Nothing changes the fact the Confederate batteries fired the first shots.”

Who fired the “first shots” - that alone - is not determinative of who started a war. There are other factors to consider.

Under your “first shot” theory the United States could be said to have started the war with Japan in 1941 since it was U.S. forces that fired the first shot at Pearl Harbor.

Your theory won't do.

359 posted on 06/15/2021 7:18:32 AM PDT by jeffersondem
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