Posted on 07/29/2017 1:42:57 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
In July 1967, a fire broke out on board the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal. An electrical anomaly had caused the discharge of a Zuni rocket on the flight deck, triggering a chain-reaction of explosions that killed 134 sailors and injured 161. At the time, Forrestal was engaged in combat operations in the Gulf of Tonkin, during the Vietnam War.
...The impact of the rocket had also dislodged two of the 1000-lb AN-M65 bombs, which fell to the deck, and lay in the pool of burning fuel between White's aircraft and that of Lieutenant Commander John McCain.
(Excerpt) Read more at en.wikipedia.org ...
Please read my second comment to this thread.
“But apparently John was good about showing off using this technique and they had nicknamed him “Wet Start Johnny” from what I have read.”
I made it clear That this was only what I read. It was not a clear indication of factual knowledge about it. My statement in no way makes the FR look bad.
Right or wrong It is just my “understanding” of it from what I have read. This was no reason to get so serious about it.
I wouldn't agree/disagree with that statement, CedarDave, because I don't know anything about that...I know nothing about the hows or whys, who he talked to, or why, how, or when he left the ship. I know nothing more about it than hearing it said it happened, so I can't comment on it.
But that is not the matter in discussion here which is the cause of the fire on the USS Forrestal, and that I do know something about.
I have respect for the truth and do my best to find it and promote it. By the same token, as you have pointed out as well, promoting false information destroys credibility. One lie can wipe out the merit of a thousand truths.
If this story were true it could easily be the worst act of McCain’s life. The fact that it’s not, and easily disproved, makes it an entirely self-destructive accusation to make. He is a traitor ten times over in his congressional life and those stories deserve to be taken seriously.
That seemed pretty clear to me. Look, if you want to admit you were just piling on, I understand that completely. Been there, and done that, right here on FR, too.
This whole "Ace McCain killed everyone on the USS Forrestal" thing just comes up like clockwork every time something comes up about the USS Forrestal fire. And sure, I admit that, on this subject, I DO feel like FR blog police who jump in every time they get a sniff of someone they think is blog-pimping on FR.
I simply see this as a more serious thing than "blog pimping". Blog pimping hurts FR, but in a different way. This hurts the foundation of any truth we may want to point out (as TigersEye's posted link does) and makes it easy to discount us, because this is so easily refuted by anyone with knowledge of flight deck operations and jet engine operations.
We all feel that McCain likes to ally himself with liberals because he is one of them ideologically, and the liberals enjoy that a great deal and get countless miles out of that. When we try to damn him with starting the fire on the USS Forrestal, all it takes is one liberal who understands what I have explained in my posts (and they are out there) to gleefully say "Ha. Dummies on Free Republic don't even know what a wet start is, all the crap they post there are lies anyway. If they lie and make stuff up about how a jet engine works just to smear McCain, everything else is suspect..."
So, it was nothing at all personal towards you, Openurmind.
Exactly!
Sontagged, I wish you could see that most of us do feel the same way as you do about McCain, but simply feel that taking this approach of blaming the USS Forrestal conflagration on him is self-defeating to what we are trying to say, which the links supplied by TigersEye do in spades.
It isn’t out of respect for McCain, or out of animus to you that we differ.
LOL, I like the way you put that. I understand.
100% agreement
Thank you for the explanation; I get testy because so many online “conservatives” turn out to be GOPe fakes.
Thanks for the info on a hot start and a wet start.
In any case, McCain was around an awful lot of mishaps and death of US servicemen; and I believe his traitorous actions as a POW match what he did on Obamacare.
God bless and good night.
Thank you too for taking the time to respond... I understand what you were saying there.
And I simultaneously understand why Jeremiah Denton gave McCain such short shrift in WHEN HELL WAS IN SESSION
and why McCain was anathema to Ronald Reagan.
Not a problem, Sontagged. I can tell from your posts that we are on the same side...we can pull together in the same direction, which we hope involves putting leftists in places they don’t want to go!
First I very much appreciate and respect your explanatory reply. This is all it would have taken from the beginning, just a short “are you sure about that”? And I would have explained that I did indeed understand that the accusation was still an unsolved controversy.
But what you did because of your extensive knowledge about these planes and engines was bait me with a question so that you could dump your expertise on me and make me look the fool. But I clearly stated that I was not an expert and wasn’t completely sure what wet starting was in that same reply.
As for my “I think he did indeed” statement I see now it might have been better if I had used the term “could have” rather than “did”. I am like most and very familiar that this is a very long term controversy. My choice of “did” rather than “could have” stems from McCain’s own arrogance and lack of integrity which discredits every defense of this man.
Is it possible a mistake could have been covered up by the Navy because of the high profile situation McCain was in? Absolutely, and did McCain turn out to be an outright liar? absolutely. So based on this I have always thought the darker side of this controversy very well could be true. But I always admit that I have no factual basis aside from accounts of others I have read and there is a LOT of it.
Over the years I have had extensive personal experience with how the government works in cases like this. Do they fudge and manipulate investigations? Absolutely, I know this for a fact. And we just had a recent event where if it had not been for the huge internet exposure it would have been manipulated and covered up to save face...The USS Fitzgerald incident, it has been one of the very few that they were forced to be honest about.
So do I give credibility to the government and these official investigations? No, they are not a creditable source to be trusted in any investigation of themselves. And this truth should be universal knowledge to anyone who has been personally involved with government dealings.
I completely understand and commend your loyalty and defense of this website. And I have always done the same with web communities I have come to love being a part of. No judgment from me on this one, It is the right thing to do. What is a web community without it’s loyal and passionate members? I have always appreciated and respected this in my own web communities I have owned in the past.
Now with that being said may I now share a thought about your statement here? “Ha. Dummies on Free Republic don’t even know what a wet start is, all the crap they post there are lies anyway. If they lie and make stuff up about how a jet engine works just to smear McCain, everything else is suspect...”
I could be wrong, but I honestly don’t think there are that many left out there today who would even understand the whole concept enough to even raise this question or criticism about this. A criticism like this would have to come from a unique very very knowledgeable source like yourself.
And from what I see, there are very very few on the “other” side who have enough brain cells to rub together to even think of this particular very unique specialized criticism. But I completely understand and respect your defense here and will try to word things better in the future. :)
Well, you are right, I did bait you. I shouldn’t have done that, but unfortunately, with this subject, to dispose of it more quickly instead of dragging it out for many posts over many days, I try to get people to get right to the heart of the matter, so I can get to driving the stake through it faster.
It is part of the Socratic method, in which you ask questions to steer someone intellectually into the corner of a room with a floor they paint with their own answers to your questions, and once they are trapped in the corner, you ask them the question you really wanted answered in the first place, but you leave the person with only two ways to answer: Truthfully, which makes them have to recant their beliefs, or they answer by attacking irrationally to escape (Leaving the corner of the room they painted themselves into by simply walking out of the room on the wet paint they laid down)
I shouldn’t have done that. I don’t know you or your stance on things well enough to have taken that approach. It was a breach of trust with a fellow Freeper.
In this case, I had the impression you had full signed on to the concept that a hot start by McCain somehow started the fire or set off the ordinance that spread the conflagration. Your very first post in the thread made it clear to me what you were subscribing to. I shouldn’t have tried to pin you so quickly and given you time to clarify your statement.
Sigh. If you can’t tell, I have had this particular conversation on this subject...a lot. I apologize I was less accommodating to you on this than perhaps I could or should have been.
I have that book, signed by Jeremiah Denton. Great book.
+1. Nice and honorable. I had to give up on setting some right on Extortion 17. Made me frustrated as hell.
Sigh. I hate getting into it with fellow FReepers on stuff like this. I have been on the other side of these things often enough to exercise forebearance, but I get emotional enough that I don’t.
My whole life it seems I am going to have to remind myself to grow up...in my sixties and still reminding myself. You would think I would get it by now.
BTW, I had a POW bracelet with Denton’s name on it as a teenager...I wore it until it corroded off! I would have liked to have met him and shook his hand. One of my heroes.
You owe me no apology at all my friend. You were just doing what you thought was right for the FR and I should be more careful in how I word things if I am not absolutely sure. :)
Hopefully we can just write this one up as a topic miscommunication between us? I am new here and should respect the fact I am probably still on “Probation” in the hearts of longtime passionate members like yourself.
I am absolutely sure the concept and content here at the FR does invite people who cannot be trusted. So it is right to be cautious and on the look out for those who would try and sabotage it. Hopefully, Even though I am very open and bold, I can eventually earn the trust of this board.
I am no threat, Just an old Grandpa trying to support every source like the FR that can help to move this country in the right direction and protect the future of my Grandchildren. I think most here as a community are doing the same for their Children and Grandchildren. :)
I have to be honest and confess that I have been guilty myself of painting people into corners. So I understand why you presented it this way, I am not without fault in this concept. And honestly... sometimes it DOES need to be done this way!
So please also accept my own apologies for helping create this mix up friend. :)
Absolutely... It is an example of extreme integrity that should be highly appreciated and respected. But the fault is not all his. I am also guilty in this miscommunication mix up.
If you haven’t already read it, get hold of a copy of
“The Nightingale Sings” by Robert Timberg
It was published in 1995 and follows the careers of Poindexter, McCain, Ollie North etal
Timberg was a USNA Grad who served as a Marine and got pretty messed up.
Interesting read.
He also wrote one on McCain - ‘John McCain-An American Odyssey’
I took no serious offence from it, so please don’t fault yourself too hard. We are good as far as I’m concerned, The last thing I would want to do create animosity with anyone here and you had every right to make a defensive stand and if I offended you I also Apologize for this, sometimes my passion gets the best of me too. :)
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